Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[Vogel648]

There were a number of problems with aim high as well, including but not limited to, the overbalancing of autonomous modes, the fact that experienced teams that knew how to use the camera had a huge advantage in both regular and autonomous play, and various other thing. Overall I think the game this year was a solid one that would have real world aplications.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

So what is pinning exactly? I see it as one team blocking a team against a solid structure as to prevent them from doing anything. Something swinging around and movable (especially something you are trying to score on) should hardly count. Remember in '06 when you were allowed to pin indefinitely on the ramp? The same mentality should still apply and I think that's how the refs were thinking.

Back to the rule, pinning is "inhibit[ing] the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border". It doesn't say it has to be something rigid; spider legs are certainly field elements. The reason that pinning was not called against the ramp last year was because the ramp was considered part of the floor, not a field element. That may not have been clear in the initial rules, but it was cleared up mid-year and I believe it was called consistently across regionals.

[Tyler 783]

Ok I don't normaly post, but I beleive this thread warrents a post. I'll state right now I am not taking sides, I'm actualy not going to say anything about what calls were made, or what people 'should have done'. I'm just going to try and put some things in perspective.

Ok for those of you who don't know me (or at least don't know me by name) I have been (for the past two years) the Lead Team Queuer of the the GTR and the Waterloo regional, so in this capacity I have had a chance to talk to pretty much every drive team of every team who has competed at those two regionals. I was also on my own teams' Drive team for 3 years, so I also know the exitement and adrenaline of the action on the feild.

Ok now to the two points that I wanted to talk about.

Firstly since I wasn't there and have only watched the match once I do not think it fair for me to make any claims as such. What I realy want to talk about is the excitment of the moment, I know from my years driving the robot that during the competition you are very very excited. Some things you do in this state you may regret latter on. Also that in this state you are more then likley to become excited when there is a sudden advantage you have gained. I know from personal experience from driving the robot that during matches I've become excited at times, that in hindsight I beleive I should not have for various reasons. I don't beleive that in times like these that most people (not all but most) could do things that wouldn't be in character. I beleive that the way that things are handeled after the situation are more important, and the feelings of regret are sometimes almost punishment enough.

Secondly everyone seems to be going on hard about the refing. You have to remember that there are only a limited number of referees watching any one given feild, and that all the referees are volunteers. I know personaly from volunteering that at everymoment I try my best to make sure everything happens the way it should be and try my best to do the job assigned for me. I am sure that it is the same for all of the other volunteers in FIRST. This being said what more would you want to have seen done?

[AdamHeard]

A few points I would like to make;

Do not argue what something "should" be, or what you would have done to win; The rules are the rules, and they are pretty literal in this sense.

Do not say that 1114 should have made their arm stronger. I am willing to bet money that 1114's arm is more robust than 90% of the other teams out there (the only one that is definitely more robust in my mind is 330, but that's because I have a lot of experience with them. I'm sure there are others as well).

The facts are that it looks pretty much like 48 tried to break 1114. I have a hard time believing this in FIRST, especially from a veteran and high caliber team, but I saw with my own eyes what happened. At first, I though I must be crazy; but when well respected members of the FIRST community (Karthik, Jay, etc...) claim to have seen the exact same thing, it is hard to think otherwise.

I would like to hear what the coach and drivers for 48 have to say about this.

They either were playing with the intent to break 1114, or were playing extremely rough with no regards to the consequences.

[CJV648]

People who have talked about the reffing have missed a subtle point about the use of red/yellow cards. IMHO the problem was not so much that 48 did not receive a red card in SF1-3, but that it and a couple of other teams had not received yellows for rough play earlier in qualifying that would have toned down the rough play the way good refs do in soccer. 48's qualifying rounds were rough enough that when I saw 48 get picked I was pretty sure robots would be broken in eliminations, though I didn't expect anything as dramatic as what happened. If the red/yellow card system is used again next year FIRST should encourage refs to use the yellow card a lot more often and prepare them to listen to the ensuing whining from coaches/players.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Tyler 783

Firstly since I wasn't there and have only watched the match once I do not think it fair for me to make any claims as such. What I realy want to talk about is the excitment of the moment, I know from my years driving the robot that during the competition you are very very excited. Some things you do in this state you may regret latter on. Also that in this state you are more then likley to become excited when there is a sudden advantage you have gained. I know from personal experience from driving the robot that during matches I've become excited at times, that in hindsight I beleive I should not have for various reasons. I don't beleive that in times like these that most people (not all but most) could do things that wouldn't be in character. I beleive that the way that things are handeled after the situation are more important, and the feelings of regret are sometimes almost punishment enough.

I fully agree with this observation - claiming a "fact" that another team wanted to damage your robot based on their subsequent celebration is inappropriate and incorrect.

At UCF regional we had our arm ripped off by another robot (Barry Bonzack's team). Ours was definitely not robust enough, but it was repaired in time for the next match. Although I didn't watch them, I would imagine that Barry's team was excited and probably cheered when it happened because it is pretty cool to see, even though our field team was probably sick about it at the time because of the time they had put into the robot. I started laughing when I saw it from the stands (although I didn't design the joint I designed the arm) because it made for great drama, but I then ran down to get repairs started. Barry and crew came up afterward to see what they could do, and they gave us pneumatic tubing we needed for the repair.

I've been in the same boat before. S.P.A.M has NEVER had a strategy aimed at damaging another robot, but it has happened due to the rigors of competition. Having a strong drive train means you play strong defense so it is bound to happen.

Don't read intentions into initial reactions.

Originally Posted by Kate771

Excessive force is a DQ. There was no DQ

Hmmmm..... I must have missed that one in the rule book. Can you point me toward it?

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

Back to the rule, pinning is "inhibit[ing] the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border". It doesn't say it has to be something rigid; spider legs are certainly field elements. The reason that pinning was not called against the ramp last year was because the ramp was considered part of the floor, not a field element. That may not have been clear in the initial rules, but it was cleared up mid-year and I believe it was called consistently across regionals.

Sometimes the referee's did not even know when a RINGER/KEEPER was SCORED. It is hard for them to make even complex calls like those. I am sorry for what happen to 1114. Hopefully FIRST will resolve their issues and make some changes next season.

[Kate00]

I was on the field for that match, and would like to offer my perspective.

1114's arm was clearly bending back, as you can see in the video, and speaking as a defensive driver, when you are pinning someone against the rack, you can generally clearly see their arm and whether or not it is flexing/at the point of breaking. Regardless of whether or not they saw the arm flexing, it was still an excessive use of force. Excessive force is a DQ. There was no DQ.

What I found most despicable was the celebration of 48 after 1114's arm snapped off. You can't see it in the video, but it was clearly seen by several eyewitnesses, myself included. This is entirely against everything that I've ever been taught in the years that I have been in first. I know, I know, compete on the field and cooperate off the field, but celebrating when your opponents arm comes off - clearly using excessive force - that goes beyond "competing" and into "willful destruction," which was not a part of the gracious professionalism that I was taught.

Myself and several other people witnessed 48 trying to break 1114's arm off in Toronto. They then went through the pits bragging about their defense on 1114. They also played defense on 1114 during practice matches both at GTR and Championships, which was clearly witnessed.

As to the "design flaw," in the video, you can clearly see 1114's arm moving the 330 pound + friction rack. In all of the events I was at this year (Waterloo, GTR and Championships), I never saw anyone else move the rack. (Edit: never saw anyone else's arm spin the rack in a circle while attached to a spider leg). Ever. Their arm spun the rack before snapping off. I have not seen the design myself, however, this is in my mind irrefutable proof of the solid design I know that 1114 would produce.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Kate771

They also played defense on 1114 during practice matches both at GTR and Championships, which was clearly witnessed.

Why should Defensive based bots not be able to practice what they are designed for? Yes i agree to some extent, but the intent of practice is just that, practice. They have just as much of a right to play as their robot is made to do as any other robot.

I will agree with you on some what of a front that excessive D shouldn't be played in practice matches. I see that there are two matches for practice, in one match play D on any team as possible, as much as possible. Maybe match two plays less D and roam around the other end of the field and test new ideas?

In the end, i don't care if you have a purely Offense robot or purely Defense robot; they both have the right to practice what their robot's capabilities are.

[meaubry]

Thanks Steve W. for keeping an eye on this thread - much apprciated.

Everyone - keep this one civil and relavent to the thread topic.
Discuss what happened in an appropriate manner.

I didn't witness it, as I was over at Archimedes at the time.

Carry on

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

In the end, i don't care if you have a purely Offense robot or purely Defense robot; they both have the right to practice what their robot's capabilities are.

There's another thread to discuss defense in practice matches. Let's leave this thread to talk about the direct issues and facts surrounding SF1.3. Thanks.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...e #post608676

[Karthik1]

I will not state my opinion on that (Curie Semifinal 1 - 3) particular match. but in regards to defense in a practice match: I think its is a good practice for teams to inform and request the other teams that they will be defending prior to a practice match. I know that my team 1504 did just that when we played defense in a practice match at nationals.

[Travis Hoffman]

I'm sorry, I've been too busy collecting facts and personal statements from independent sources to really digest the rest of this thread prior to this post. I will leave the replies to those posts to honest people who feel the need to provide factual evidence on this extremely unfortunate situation. One would hope and pray that rumor-mongerers and piler-oners would stay away from this. Some would truly appreciate this gesture of doing and saying nothing.

The following was sent to me from our pit mentor, Donnell, who is notorious for remaining in the pit during elimination rounds due to some strange superstition. I know this doesn't answer all the questions I'm sure are swimming around inside all your little heads right about now, but perhaps this is a good start at finding out the truth about all of this?

"After the robot came back to the pits (after the Curie Finals) I went to congratulate Johnny (Pasco) and he was visibly upset and shaken. I thought he was just exhausted from all the excitement, as his face was red and he had his head down on his arms leaning on the "War Wagon". I put my arm around him and congratulated him on a great season. He just lifted his head up and stared into space and shrugged. I told him to hold his head up because he had a great season as a new driver (winning a regional) and didn't do any worse in Atlanta than we did last year. He just said, "Yeah, but I broke their arm." I asked, whose arm, and he said 1114. This is the first I had heard about the whole incident. I was surprised that this specific incident was bothering him that much considering it was a whole tier of the Curie Finals prior to what he had just completed. Not knowing the severity of the incident, I just told him not to worry about it because everybody's robot gets damaged, especially in the Championship Finals. Pasco said, "No, you don't understand, their arm just snapped in half - I didn't mean to do it and I wasn't trying to do it, I didn't know what happened until it broke." …….he stopped short and said that he didn't want to talk about it anymore, he didn't know what to do…..then he walked away."

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[Nawaid Ladak]

if you watch the video until the end, you will notice, that if there were 3 more seconds given on the field, we wouldn't be talking about this, instead we would be talking about how great of a team 1114 is, facing all that adversity and still able to lift MARS up.

How close they came was almost amazing, it just goes to show HOW GREAT 1114 really was.

also I wanted to know this, im trying to figure this out, but i couldn't find it anywhere, if that ringer that wasn't scored, if that counted, what would have been the final score, that also goes for the 469 descored ringer.

TIA

[Karthik]

I've taken some time to calm down, and now I'm ready to post some facts. I'll leave my opinions out of this, because they're clearly clouded by my emotions. PM me if you want to hear my rambles.

Fact: Team 48 had been posting on CD numerous times about the virtues of defense. You can search for these posts. Not a big deal, since defense is part of the game. Until you put into the context of this match.

Fact: Team 48 "joked" about wanting to play defense on 1114, whille being their partner, so that they could "show off their defense"

Fact: Team 48 nearly ripped 1114's arm off in a qualifying match at the Toronto Regional. They backed away, allowing 1114 to proceed, and score an additional 3 tubes. A mentor from 48 then said (paraphrasing from memory) "If we weren't so concerned about your arm, we could have completely shut you down that match"

Fact: Members of Team 48's driveteam, led by the Drive Coach, celebrated when 1114's arm snapped off. This was witnessed by myself, and numerous members of other teams. If I hadn't seen this with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself.

Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened

Fact: Multiple Team 48 members told members of 1114 to "look out, we're coming after you" prior to the matchup. Normally we would just assume that meant they were going to defend us. In the context of the match, my feelings are now different.

Fact: Team 48 was booed by a large section of the Curie stands (1114 was not part of this group) when they were announced for their next match. I have never seen this at FIRST event before, and I think it says a lot about how upset people were about this incident.

Fact: 48 pinned 1114 for 34 seconds, without backing up by 3 feet for 3 seconds.

Fact: The head referee was not aware of the 3 feet for 3 seconds rule. Even though this was discussed at the driver's meeting. She actually had to look it up at the scorer's table.

Fact: The head referee said "how do I know your arm was any good", to our Coach and Driver

Those are the facts about many of the situations that have been disputed.

I don't want the ugly incident of this match to take away from the great play of Teams 67 and 1732. Both teams had amazing robots, and displayed a huge amount of class. Members of both teams actually apologized to us about the actions of team 48. This impressed me, and helped me remember why I do FIRST. Then again, I should have expected nothing less from a classy organization like the HOT team.

I'd like to personally thank every team and individual who came to us to express their concern and sympathies about the incident. Having the support of all of you helped our team's emotional psyche.