What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Ricksta121

Humans resist change, and we will resist change. There is no controling that. What can be controlled, is how we all handle the changes.

That is exactly what i have been thinking lately. I couldn't figure out a proper way to post my thoughts upon why somehow change could be a minor result in the diffrence this year from previous. i still have no clue. My guess goes out to change, not everyone likes it including myself.

[Cody Carey]

First, I'd like to say that I agree with you, Arefin...


I would also like to say that there are many discernible reasons for the spike of ill-meant threads and posts.

Most predominantly of which, is human nature. When you design your robot around something which you expect to be a solid, well-engineered piece of equipment (as is implied by it being in the KOP)... and that object ends up failing; the first human reaction is to be angry. To be upset because something beyond your control caused you to seemingly fail. Few people's first reaction is to solve the problem... and that is one of the many facts of life. I look up to and strive to attain the level of maturity it takes to look at a (seemingly) gigantic problem, and immediately begin trying to formulate an answer; but when you have people under the age of Thirty frequently posting, you can expect to see a little immaturity. That, and just the idea of six hard weeks of building can be enough to bring anyone to a state of constant annoyance.

Another reason that has not been looked upon in a full light, is the fact that first is now over 1300 teams strong. With this great increase in recognition and inspiration, there comes a large increase in some not-so pleasant things as well. Namely an increase in the number of teams that have to lose. Thirteen hundred teams compete, and only three complete that long road to victory. When more teams lose, there will be more complaints.

Oy, a reason that I know is on a lot of peoples' minds, but I'm not going to go into in this particular post, is that maybe FIRST (The organization) is giving FIRST (The developed Community) more to complain about this year.

A reason that I find myself just noticing this year, is the lack of solid representations from non-"elite" teams. ChiefDelphi is a home for the more successful teams in FIRST. There are exceptions to this rule (and I'll be the first to admit that 306 is one such exception), but predominantly... The only robots I see represented are the ones that make me drool. Now, There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an elite team, and I have in fact been inspired by quite a few of them. My only point here is that when you have a discussion between the most involved people in FIRST, It is only to be expected that you will get involved discussions and answers. Answers that include all aspects of a situation, even the bad. The fact that you have posts that are wrought with hard feelings, numerous problems, and few solutions is just a reflection upon real life.

When a community gets as large as FIRST is, it will increase uniformly... There will be just as much increase in the unpleasant as there is in the pleasant. Any trend on ChiefDelphi of there being more good than bad can only be attributed to outstanding moderation.



-Cody C





NOTE: As with all posts, some of you will like what you've read, and some of you will not. There have been no strategically placed smilies to lighten the mood of the post, only opinions. It is out of my hands now. I'd ask that you respond responsibly.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Im sorry for my post earlier this week bashing 1732

You guys must have been a great team to be ranked #1

[Chris Marra]

I have tried to keep distant from many of the issues on CD, but observed the same thing as Tom: the people involved in these situations were smart enough to keep their composure, and work towards a solution or explanation even when surrounded by people unable to remain calm and collected.

It takes a certain type of person to recognize a problem, bring it to light, and fix it. In the end, people who are able to hold their heads above the fray are the most well respected and liked in their respective communities. This is what FIRST is about in many situations, and perhaps some people have forgotten this and now that the season is over, will be able to step back and reflect on things. We can't fault anyone for a momentary lapse in posting harsh words or making a complaint about a system if they prove they are not being insolent and that they have a legitimate reason for their actions. I respect the people on ChiefDelphi who have maintained this mantra throughout the season, and been able to clearly and effectively communicate their thoughts, and solve problems.

There really isn't anything wrong with the growth we are seeing here, and the level or type of discussion being posted here, its just a natural process. We merely need to keep an eye out for both ourselves and others to stay within reasonable bounds, and make sure that cooler heads prevail when the last person takes their say. I don't mean this post as a shot or insult to anyone, but merely as a general observation of the current activity. Many issues have been resolved, or explained, and I commend the people involved in that.

[David Brinza]

It's important to recognize the difference between whining and constructive criticism. Anyone can point out a problem, offering a solution is far more valuable.

When something really bothers you, take the time to identify the cause and when you come up with an idea of how to fix it, then submit a post.

P.S. I wish I was better at doing that than I am.

[John Wanninger]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

Im sorry for my post earlier this week bashing 1732

You guys must have been a great team to be ranked #1

Thank you for the apology!

[Tytus Gerrish]

When individuals present opinions critiquing FIRST's "Infinite" wisdom, the interpretations of its ideals and goals are closely moderated and often censored. This frustration and dissatisfaction is not a new phenomena in this program. Only recently has a large scale awareness of said frustration surfaced. Those of you who have read my (now much less frequent) posts in the past few years will notice that they are filled with sarcastic and "around the corner" remarks about various shortcomings of the program and people participating in it. Because of the overwhelming amount of want-to-be heroes who jump on any opportunity to "bash and crush" the rebellion, I have found ChiefDelphi and the autonomous followers of FIRST's Ideal Vision repulsive and impossible for me to fully cooperate with. Straightforward posts for me are gone. The community is now speaking out and has therefore changed.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Cuog

I'm almost convinced its just this year. Almost everyone I know has been having problems since New Years, both in and out of FIRST.

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

I so wanted to include that in my post. You read my mind.

I blame it on Pluto being pissed it's not a planet anymore and throwing the cosmos out of whack. LOL
That's my official standpoint on the lighter side.

But on the serious side, something is definitely "up" this past year.
I see it within FIRST and also within my personal life (family, friends etc..)

Kinda sad really.

I remember back in the day in FIRST when the only real stress was at competitions or build season, and even that stress, looking back on my 7 years in this program, wasn't anything a good team or person couldn't handle effectively and maturely.

Lately it's gotten out of control. It's very hard to explain, but then again, so many people know what you are talking about without saying a word that it's so easy to explain at the same time.

I guess that just happens when an organization gets bigger, and more people with differening opinions and personalities are introduced into that system.

I've said this many times before this year when I actually got a chance to think about things, that the dream to "change the culture" is happening, but when you just say "change the culture", isn't a change in any direction, for the good, for the bad, side is still a change?
Maybe what our goal which everyone assumes is the case, but without any assumptions should be to enact a positive change on the culture.

And Arefin, our FIRST family tree is still alive and kicking. It's just (as in every family, or team, or group) every once in a while you see more of the bad apples on that family tree than the strong folks who act as the roots who make up the tree's mighty backbone.

Don't give up hope on this family tree, for it has weathered a lot in the past, and will continue to hold this organization strong with it's effort in the future.

</$0.02>

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

But on the serious side, something is definitely "up" this past year.
I see it within FIRST and also within my personal life (family, friends etc..)

This might be a good topic for another thread rather than high jacking this one but I can't help but think some of this is growing pains for a lot of people. The transition from high school to college and from college to career all while mentoring, can be a little rough. I don't say this to take away from the initial post that Arefin has made or the other posts that have followed but it is a thought I've had as I've read through the thread. And, I think FIRST is experiencing growing pains in some areas as well.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This might be a good topic for another thread rather than high jacking this one but I can't help but think some of this is growing pains for a lot of people. The transition from high school to college and from college to career all while mentoring, can be a little rough. I don't say this to take away from the initial post that Arefin has made or the other posts that have followed but it is a thought I've had as I've read through the thread. And, I think FIRST is experiencing growing pains in some areas as well.

Jane I was thinking the same thing. So many of the community here have gotten older and have so many more pressures on their time and resources. It’s not like it was when they were in high school all very young and full of FIRST spirit. Now they have much time and effort invested in something they love and the passion comes out even stronger.

You guys have built a great community that you can be proud of. It’s become a second family to many but like with all families there comes strife and conflict from time to time.

Has this community changed? Yes, it had too because the people in it have changed. Will it be what it was? Maybe not, especially not for the veterans, it’s a deeper thing for you now but for the new young ones coming up it’s still fresh and new.

It’s hard to keep a family intact and as you grow it will be harder but the rewards are great and worth the effort.

[technoL]

I posted this in the "Please Stop Complaining" thread earlier this season, but I feel as if it is applicable here:

Although it is tireless to read endless threads about dissatisfaction with rules and the game, it is helpful to teams to be able to vent, have someone hear their story, or at least know that someone shared the same experience.

CD isn't just a FIRST-worshiping forum, it's a place where teams come to discuss FIRST and the events related. Controversial rules and issues are discussed, which often lead to heated discussions, but I'm sure at the end of the day, everyone has the same goal, and there is usually not much negative associated with it. So if we just simply address all the good about an event and FIRST, with everything else pushed to the back burner and no criticism, I'm sure that a lot will go undone, and many preventable situations will occur.

Although I am relatively new to FIRST, only being a part of a team for 2 years and Chief Delphi lurker the year previous, I have quickly noticed a trend about the 2007 season that stands out. Although there were more "complaints" and problems this year like everyone else has said, the voice on this site is one thing that I love about FIRST. Unlike most organizations, everyone can be heard and have their opinion accepted respectfully, rather than keeping burning issues swept tightly under the rug. This is a very touchy subject that we're discussing, but hopefully each person that reads through this thread will now post more open-minded or with a better perspective.

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up, Arefin!

-No L

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by Bongle

I don't know what it was, but it seemed that everyone was in a worse 'mood' this season. The championship 'could be improved' thread is full of people saying it was not all that great, some saying it was the worst one for years. The drillpress-banning thread was full of people saying it was the last straw or that they are steadily getting more fed up with FIRST.

I don't think you can add the drillpress debacle into this mix. I believe that was an aberration that FIRST realized almost as soon as they released it. FIRST effectively forgot their own history.

The reason these industrial tools came into the team pits is because the facilities at the venues, in years past, were often 1) distant from the facility, 2) unable to accomodate the time constraints put on the teams by the FIRST match schedule, and 3) often undermanned for the number of work requests made by teams. Teams and sponsors both realized that in order to compete properly, they had to take more control of their repair cycles.

In 2001, I made my first trip to the Championship Event, and I thought we had a nice pit cart to work on our robot. That is until I saw the mobile toolshops brought down by Ford and GM that supported all the teams they sponsored. Teams and sponsors that were serious about competing made sure they had the tools necessary, within the time constraints given, to make it onto the field for every match.

As the years passed, more and more tools found their way into the pits. Although FIRST "hoped" that teams would act safely, they hadn't taken much control of that activity until just a few years ago. Even teams realized that the pit area was becoming unsafe, and you would frequently hear comments about it. FIRST began taking more serious control a few years back, and they have been trying to raise Safety Awareness each year by building upon what they previously have done. Now we have a Safety Award, teams get Safety tokens when observed, we have a Safety Video contest, etc.

FIRST also has been banning items from the pits to minimize the potential for injury. There is no grinding in the pits; every little spark that comes off during grinding is a very small pit of metal buring up. Not a good thing to be throwing into your neighbors pit area. There was no serious uproar when such items were banned previously. We, as a community, recognized the inherent lack of safety when grinding in the pits.

Drill presses on the other hand are not designed to remove metal by grinding and throwing it, but to push through an object in a more controlled action. Is it possible to "throw" drill press debris? Yes, of course you can, we have all seen it. But when used appropriately, a good machinist will be able to drill through a part and still control the shavings. This was the first problem with the decision, FIRST in its' ruling effectively insulted the fine engineers and machinists who are part of this organization.

The second part of the problem was that FIRST would allow teams to still use "hand" drills. This goes totally against machine shop safety and logic. It is much safer and more precise to clamp an object onto a stationary press for drilling, than to clamp the object onto a pit table and use a movable hand drill. FIRST's efforts to improve safety in the pits were counterproductive toward their own goals. Hence the very active CD thread.

The reason I view this as an aberration is because many posts in there are from folks who are less inclined to be so vehement in their criticism of FIRST. They are critical, when appropriate, but they post their critiques in a more thoughtful manner than some of the knee-jerk posts that wound up in that thread. These are long-time, well-respected members of the community, who saw a need to change a ruling quickly and acted thusly. FIRST to their credit recognized their own error and did make the change.

I do agree that there has been a change in the community this year, and I have been working on a post to put into the "Championships -- What to Improve" thread for a few days now. I will say that I was glad to see an apology to Team 1732; we all played the same game, and they finished on top. They deserved to be there, and no team should be made to feel as if they somehow "backed into First Place". It's disrespectful to the team, to the Championships as organized, and to the FIRST organization as a whole. Congratulations 1732, you played the game and finished on top -- Enjoy and Celebrate!

[Kims Robot]

Arefin,
Unfortunately FIRST today is NOT the FIRST you joined 6 years ago, and it is NOT the FIRST I joined 12 (ugh Im old) years ago. With growth comes change. No company that goes from 30 people to 1300 people in less than 10 years is going to be the same company. And you are right, the more teams there are, the fewer people that are going to always be "happy". Heck I can remember the day when there were probably 60 teams, and I could call Brian Farmer at FIRST and talk to him (as the electrical engineer on staff) directly and ask questions. While FIRST still answers the phone, all of that is done online now. Changes happen.

As for the issue with Chief Delphi. No offense to CD, but we NEVER refer any outsiders to this forum. While I feel it is an excellent resource for teams, great to dig through and search, and great to keep up on current issues, it is NOT a forum I expect outsiders to understand. Instead we refer them to the main FIRST site and our website (which also has forums, but they are all for ideas, not complaining).

We do make all of our team members sign up here... as 90% of the time, a question they stand in line to ask me can be answered here or in the rule book. It was also a HUGE help to read through the radio issue & banebots issue threads and have this community constructively figure out what was going on. It started with complaints, but evolved into solutions.

I have to think FIRST is listening with the number of changes and fixes they have made and with some of the responses in the team updates. There needs to be a place for people to hear eachother, to talk things out and to come up with solutions. I also like that someone said sometimes people just need to vent, to feel heard, and while it may not make this the friendliest place, it works, and it makes people feel better.

While FIRST isnt perfect, and I have to admit I had my moments this year, as did many, I think they are listening, and I think they are trying, and thats good enough for me to stick by it and keep believing in the ideals. Its just becoming more like real life, and maybe thats not a bad thing for our kids to learn.

[John Wanninger]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

...Congratulations 1732, you played the game and finished on top -- Enjoy and Celebrate!

Thanks, Bill for the kind words and for your part in Team 365's showing new teams like ours the way. MOE’s Chairman’s Award is so befitting - Congrats!

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Every time a big problem was expressed on Chief Delphi, the problem was fixed, or explained.

Viewed from above the water's surface, a duck appears to turn and glide without effort, almost magically. Seen below the surface, that same duck's feet are a churning engine, paddling hard for every increment of progress.

When a problem surfaces on CD one day and has been fixed or explained just a little while later, you can be sure that some duck has been churning unseen feet to make that happen.

Ari, your concerns are well founded; but I'm sure you also know we've got some powerful ducks looking out for FIRST. This year has had its full measure of problems, but we can look forward to a better next year.

I've learned a lot this year and I suspect many others have, too.