ZOOM OUT!

[Roger]

To respond to AV_guy007:

Originally Posted by AV_guy007

The problem you guys may not seem to realize is doing all of these things take up a lot of resources.

Sorta like building a robot, huh?

Originally Posted by AV_guy007

Sargent productions has a crew at every regional,...

At which they should be practicing like the rest of us, understanding the game, learning where the good camera shots are, knowing how to present a fast moving robot to people that don't want artsy photography.

Originally Posted by AV_guy007

... for them to add more camera operators and or a video mixer is a lot of money. During weeks with a lot of regional's and a champs Sargents crew is already pretty spread thin, running 4 fields plus Einstein plus vex and FLL adds up to a lot of video people and equipment, adding another video mixer and video feed to each field doubles the amount of video mixers that are hired and doubles the amount of video equipment needed.

Waitaminute -- they get paid? <raised-eyebrow smilie>

I'm sorry for sounding so snarky about this, but after watching FIRST videos for too many years one should expect improvement. Look, you got vet teams that are so good they have to change the robot rules in unexpectant ways to keep them in line with the newbies. And these are high school kids. Kids that managed in six weeks to build and ship a complex machine. And in spite of a 2" thick rulebook managed to find unexpected loopholes. And a professional video team can't present a game?

I grant you that it is difficult to keep the camera on the action. There is no singular "action" -- no ball, you might say, to keep an eye on. Even in football where you don't know which way the ball will go, you have to hope for the best. But unlike football where the action converges on the ball, the action here spreads out. Which means a whole-field shot.

Don Wright's example is typical, except he forgot to mention having an overall shot at the end. I don't know if the video was cut short at the end or what, but I would like to see the final carnage of all the robots.

[KelliV]

Alright... Here is my theory... and something you all have to understand.

At Championships, the video is broadcast on NASA TV... even though FIRSTers love the full field, it does get a bit boring. Especially to a channel that is trying to get viewership and people interested in FIRST... people at home love crashing and tipping and seeing things that they normally wouldn't. That is why things like Robot Wars are so successful. Yes I do know we are not robot wars, but FIRST and NASATV are trying to gain viewership.

By showing things close up it also enhances the viewers experience by creating a bond between the machines and the viewers. It also creates a sort of anticipation to see the next camera angle, something that will keep them watching. I can tell you that my classmates who watched the NASATV broadcast found it a lot more interesting than the static shots I had on my camera.

-Kelli

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by KelliV

Alright... Here is my theory... and something you all have to understand.

At Championships, the video is broadcast on NASA TV... even though FIRSTers love the full field, it does get a bit boring. Especially to a channel that is trying to get viewership and people interested in FIRST... people at home love crashing and tipping and seeing things that they normally wouldn't. That is why things like Robot Wars are so successful. Yes I do know we are not robot wars, but FIRST and NASATV are trying to gain viewership.

By showing things close up it also enhances the viewers experience by creating a bond between the machines and the viewers. It also creates a sort of anticipation to see the next camera angle, something that will keep them watching. I can tell you that my classmates who watched the NASATV broadcast found it a lot more interesting than the static shots I had on my camera.

-Kelli

I do not think many people protest to the fact that the best action for someone unfamiliar with FIRST would be to watch a robot up close “strutting its stuff”. What people are complaining about is that for our [FIRST veterans] purposes, the zooming in does us no good. Although these two ideas of how cameras should be zoomed/paned/tilted is something that we would like changed there is a possible solution. How many cameras are at the regionals? I saw at least two on the floor and one sitting up high in the stands. Let’s utilize our resources. If we could have a small section of the screen, not even 1/2 or 1/4 of the entire screen, just a small section of the screen that would stay consistent I can guarantee more than half of the complaints would be gone.

Example of what I’m talking about:
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Pavan.

[team 1094]

i really wish next year at championships you could zoom in on the feild on the live feed because i couldn't see that well.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Bongle

In order to satisfy both the field viewers and the webcast viewers, FIRST would probably have to double its investment in video hardware. They'd need the whole pipeline of camera->mixer->webcaster for both the wide-field camera destined for the webcast and the close-in/interesting stuff destined for the back of the field.

You guys have to remember though: at a regional, there are probably going to be 40 teams, and at least 10 people from each team sitting at the field, watching. How many webcast viewers are there (I don't know, but I imagine it is less than 400)? How many people stand in front of the screens in front of the pit trying to see the match? Probably less than 10, continuously.

I think the best thing to do would be for one team to record the full field of each match with a high definition camcorder and distribute the videos afterwards via bittorrent. There are camcorders available within a team's budget, like this Sony 1080p model that records to a hard drive for $1800CDN. For a less crazy price, here is another one that does 1440x1080 (not real 1080p, but still very good) for $1200. My boss has the $1800 one and says he loves it, perhaps I can borrow it for the waterloo regional next year.

I have to disagree. I AM a webcast viewer at the events that I don't attend, and I get very annoyed with the camera work. Scoring is the important part of the game. Let's get the cameras focussed on that. If you want to focus on one side of the field, then do so, but single robot close-ups for more than a couple seconds (say as they score) do nothing but confuse.

Certainly, in a basketball or a footbal game there is only one ball to follow. That makes the camera guys job much easier. In this game there are 6 balls (each robot) and the camera folks have to try to keep all 6 in view for the game to make any sense!

How many of you have watched a webcast that they've "zoomed" in only to see at the end of the match that the entire other side of the rack is full, a robot is laying on it's side, and one is in the home zone with jammed ramps. You're left to wonder when the heck it all happened.

[Alexa Stott]

I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done about the way that the video is shot. I am one of those people who doesn't get out of the pits until eliminations, which means I watch all of my team's matches and any others I happen to find time for on the screen in the pits.

One memorable moment where I was disappointed was in one of our last matches of the day. They showed us beginning to attempt to climb up the ramp, but then suddenly switched to the other side to show the robots over on the other side of the field where nothing really was going on. They did not even switch back to the other side of the field after the match to show whether our attempt was successful or not; we had to wait for the match scores to be displayed to find that information out.

The camera shots were extremely irritating because of the complex nature of the rack; there are chains and pipes and tubes all over the place and zooming in on something on the side of the rack opposite the camera makes it really hard to figure out what is going on.

I think that if they could have one camera dedicated for the feeds to the pits (and possibly the webcasts) that simply showed a wide angle of the field, allowing people to see what is going on, it would be much better than their current system.

[pufame]

Looking at it from an experienced FIRST participant and scout's point of view, then yes a constant zoomed out view of the entire field would be much better. I watch at regionals on weeks that our team is not competing on the webcasts and close ups of things that I don't care about are annoying for me.

HOWEVER, from the point of view of someone who has never been involved in FIRST and this is most likely their first time seeing robots in action then the views they use now are perfect. It would get EXTREMELY boring to watch grainy dots of robots from a stationary camera view for an entire match if your not already familiar with the game. It is also much better this way from a media standpoint, it makes for much better TV reports and video clips later. One of our local TV stations covered our progress at the Buckeye regional entirely off of interviews we did before we left and a satelite feed from FIRST of the action on the filed (what was shown on the screen).

It would be like watching NASCAR when the entire track is shown constantly. Yes when they zoom in on specific cars the people who are fans of the cars not shown get a little irked and I'm sure that the audience will miss someone passing someone somewhere on the track, but it is much more intense to see close ups of two cars toward the front going back and forth for position.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by pufame

Looking at it from an experienced FIRST participant and scout's point of view, then yes a constant zoomed out view of the entire field would be much better. I watch at regionals on weeks that our team is not competing on the webcasts and close ups of things that I don't care about are annoying for me.

HOWEVER, from the point of view of someone who has never been involved in FIRST and this is most likely their first time seeing robots in action then the views they use now are perfect. It would get EXTREMELY boring to watch grainy dots of robots from a stationary camera view for an entire match if your not already familiar with the game. It is also much better this way from a media standpoint, it makes for much better TV reports and video clips later. One of our local TV stations covered our progress at the Buckeye regional entirely off of interviews we did before we left and a satelite feed from FIRST of the action on the filed (what was shown on the screen).

It would be like watching NASCAR when the entire track is shown constantly. Yes when they zoom in on specific cars the people who are fans of the cars not shown get a little irked and I'm sure that the audience will miss someone passing someone somewhere on the track, but it is much more intense to see close ups of two cars toward the front going back and forth for position.

This is why I think they should have a separate camera for the pits and one for the field. Like you said, the close ups make for some good highlight clips for television stations and promo videos. However, why should the people in the pits be kept from actually knowing what is going on out on the field?

If there was a dedicated camera for the pit feeds in addition to the current cameras, I think everyone would be happy.

[Roger]

I think these people are the same ones that shoot the concerts on PBS, or at least went to the same school to learn it. Zoom in on a guitar player's fingers, or jump back and forth between two closeups in time with the music beat, but never stay long enough to watch technique. Enough already! Show me the whole game, or maybe spllt-screen to the two ends. I'm not going to understand what's going on with the jumping about.

And another thing: what's with the 5 second shot of the final score? What's the hurry? Ya gotta date or something? It takes me that long to realize you finally posted the score, and the MC is long gone with the ref's explaination of the penalties, so why was red penalized?

Okay, one more. I only stayed in the Dome to watch our robot and a couple of games either side, so I can't complain too much (unlike our poor scouts), but show different "commercials" between games. They're acting like a 3rd rate tv station that has only one sponsor all day. There were 380 teams there, and even if they show 1/10th of the videos submitted by teams between games, that would be better rotation and more entertaining than seeing that slick video of a guy talking (sorry, I tuned it out, probably for the better, so I can't tell you what the sponsor was). At least we'd see all the submitted videos.

[Don Wright]

I'm not saying to back way up and set up a camera for the whole, or half a field. But, at least let me see the whole robot and any robots that are pushing it or something...

[Kris Verdeyen]

I think that the trouble with the video footage is that there really isn't anything like FIRST that the camera operators could have had experience with. In sports, there is one ball, and if the director keeps picking the camera with the ball in it, then he'll do fine.

I have to admit, though, it's difficult for me to know where to place my gaze when I'm watching the game up close on the field. A good match gives you several places to look, each of which will typically exclude another robot that is probably also doing something interesting. I'd like to see what someone with video editing experience could do with all the available footage if he or she wasn't constrained to have the match run in real time. A 4 or 5 minute (or even a 1 or 2 minute) after the fact reconstruction of a match could be made very interesting, and useful.

Also, whomever had the idea of spinning the camera, I'm willing to forget that it ever happened, so long as you do too. That's how you film a lame 80's music video, not a world championship.

[David Brinza]

How's this for covering the FIRST matches:

During the match, the full field camera feeds the webcast, NASA TV broadcast and pits.

The big screen behind the field can show all of the close-up, "artsy" views it wants.

Optional:
After the match (during field reset), the webcast, NASA TV, etc. can show "highlights" of the close-up action as well as the final score.

Would that work??

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

I have to admit, though, it's difficult for me to know where to place my gaze when I'm watching the game up close on the field. A good match gives you several places to look, each of which will typically exclude another robot that is probably also doing something interesting.

I think this bring out a comedic theorem of webcast-viewing:
Theorem: Under no conditions is anything happening on-field more exciting than what your robot is doing
Corollary: A broken robot is more exciting to watch than the eventual championship winner, so long as that broken robot is yours
Corollary 2:The excitement level of a given frame of video footage is proportional to the percentage of pixels taken up by your robot

I have to disagree. I AM a webcast viewer at the events that I don't attend, and I get very annoyed with the camera work. Scoring is the important part of the game. Let's get the cameras focussed on that. If you want to focus on one side of the field, then do so, but single robot close-ups for more than a couple seconds (say as they score) do nothing but confuse.

I never said that I supported the status quo, I was just pointing out my thinking that FIRST would have to invest quite a bit to satisfy the (relatively) not-many people who needed a wider-angle shot. Which is why I think a team or individual needs to take the initiative to record and distribute matches with a wide-angle shot, since FIRST is not likely to do it.

[Don Wright]

Here's an example:

http://www.soap.circuitrunners.com/2...ur/cur_095.wmv

So, to start, the overall field is nice.

Then, auton starts and they focus right in on the keeper. Back-up a little and lets see the whole robot and a little around it. We want to see how the tube got there and we still get the excitement of it scoring.

Then tele-operated mode starts and it goes good for a second, but then they focus right in on the arm of the robot so close that the camera loses focus and the arm is in and out of the picture... This shot is absolutely useless.

Then we shoot back to the red alliance and a super close-up of some gripper trying to score a tube. Useless again...unless you just zoom out a bit and show us the robot.

Then, back to another super close-up of a tube being handled by the blue alliance.

Ok, a little better now... We actually see almost a whole robot at 59 seconds in...

Hey...they are zooming out and ... oh...no good to be true...back into a super close-up of the blue tube being scored. Why so close? Would I have missed it if zoomed out a little?

Back to the other side of the field and more super close up of the blue tube flying around on the screen...

Now...we get a super close-up of some electronics. That's great and everything, but why?

Hey...they are going to grab a spoiler!!! Oops... Maybe they got it...I don't know because they switched views...

Now some more close-ups of some parts of robots, but none of them totally in view...

Hey...a close-up of the black spoiler... I guess they got it...or is it another team that has it...I don't know because the spoiler fills the screen...

Ok...we almost get to see a little action as the spoiler is tried to be placed...

Some more close-ups of robots driving across the field... Although, I don't get to see the whole robots because they are so zoomed in...

Hey...they are going to start climbing a ramp...oh no's...they switched views to the other side climbing... Both zoomed way in so we can only see part of the picture...

Back to the other side just in time to see the first, then the second robot get on... Better, but it still should be zoomed out a little...

The close-ups at the end are OK because the action has stopped...

This is just my constructive criticism. Forgive my sarcasm and attempt at humor...