Autonomous end game

[bear24rw]

So we've had the autnomous longer poll but what about autonomouse at the end of the game, I know I have seen it discussed but don't recall ever a poll. I would personally like to see it.. what do you think?

[Herodotus]

That could be extremely interesting. Have the first 15 seconds and the last 15 seconds of a match be autonomous. It throws in more unknown variables and would be much harder to program, I would imagine. I would love to see that.

[Joohoo]

I would love to see it but what about all those teams that don't or can't do autonomous mode. Wouldn't it be somewhat anti-Climatic for the end of the game? to see X amount of seconds a bunch of robots doing very little?

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Joohoo

I would love to see it but what about all those teams that don't or can't do autonomous mode. Wouldn't it be somewhat anti-Climatic for the end of the game?

For those teams that simply don't do it, it might encourage their programmers to take on the challenge of being able to successfully perform autonomously.

Our team actually discussed this when we were speculating the color hint at the 2006 Championship.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Joohoo

I would love to see it but what about all those teams that don't or can't do autonomous mode. Wouldn't it be somewhat anti-Climatic for the end of the game? to see X amount of seconds a bunch of robots doing very little?

Last year I remember there being far more teams having successful autonomous modes. The amount of teams attempting to do autonomous mode is a function of how valuable it is.

I think it'd be neat to just have a simple one: have a white line demarking the 'end zone' that robots need to get into at the end of the game, maybe with a vision target near it as well. The white line could be used with the little infrared sensors we've had in the past.

The rule would be written like this:
For every robot that is contained in an end zone at the end of the game that was not in the end zone at the beginning of the final autonomous phase, that team's alliance scores 10 points.

So camping in the end zone wouldn't score you points, you'd HAVE to get there autonomously. It'd also open up defensive autonomous modes: teams might camp in front to block the opposing alliance from being able to earn bonus points.

I'm not sure. It depends on how that would be worked out. Would your robot, using this year's game as an example, be in the middle of scoring, then all of a sudden, it would stop and autonomous would take over? Would there still be autonomous at the beginning? Also, would the human operators have to step back? There would be some serious penalties if they didn't. It would throw the whole game. Interesting...I can't decide.

I think the ideal implementation would have a 5-10 second pause between the end of teleoperated and the final autonomous mode. If you don't feel your robot is in a 'safe' position during this 5-10 second phase, you can hit the e-stop.

[Pavan Dave]

I do not think autonomous at the end of the game is very practical. I would be a big fan if the GDC was some how able to make it possible without having to jump over canyons.

The thing that is so great about autonomous is that it is very consistent, and you do not have to deal with too many elements when you are positioning your robot in the very beginning of the match and when you are choosing where to score. If you made autonomous at the end, you would have to some how waste seconds of your teleoperated period to set yourself up, or have to work harder and incorporate more sensors to where all of your sensors work together and get the task accomplished.

Add an extra autonomous period at the end - Sure.
Move the autonomous period to the end - NO.

I'm for it, but I don't see it very likely. But than again, the game will be different next year, so all the variables are completely different.

[Tytus Gerrish]

Why end the match 15 seconds early?

[Noah Kleinberg]

It could be interesting if any robots behind a certain line at the end of teleop went into autonomous mode, but robots outside of that area did not, and then any robot in autonomous mode would have some multiplier on points scored during that period (i.e. game pieces scored by manual robots are worth 1 point each in the last 15 seconds, game pieces scored by autonomous robots are worth 5). Could lead to interesting strategies.

[Donut]

Originally Posted by Noah Kleinberg

It could be interesting if any robots behind a certain line at the end of teleop went into autonomous mode, but robots outside of that area did not, and then any robot in autonomous mode would have some multiplier on points scored during that period (i.e. game pieces scored by manual robots are worth 1 point each in the last 15 seconds, game pieces scored by autonomous robots are worth 5). Could lead to interesting strategies.

This is an idea I had earlier this season I'm a huge fan of. Have an option at the end of the game where a team can hit a button of some sort that will put their robot into autonomous control. Teams can stay in manual control and try to finish out the game; however teams that can successfully do the end task autonomously get a 3X multiplier to what they just scored.

Even better, you could set this up to be possible anytime during a match, so that during it you could go into auto-control to get your huge score bonus, then go back to manual mode (obviously this would require some new additions to the field system).

[Bongle]

If you made autonomous at the end, you would have to some how waste seconds of your teleoperated period to set yourself up, or have to work harder and incorporate more sensors to where all of your sensors work together and get the task accomplished.

Too many variables to consider at the end of the game, based on where you are what direction you are pointed etc, etc, it could be done, but I'm just saying that if it was so decisive you would see the drivers for so many teams trying to set their robot up so that their robot worked autonomously the best for the last 20 seconds of manned periods,

I don't think this is the case. If you had an infrared emitter or vision target in the bonus zone, then all teams would have to do in autonomous is spin around until they find the target, then drive towards it. Already in autonomous teams have to acquire the vision target, so that isn't terribly difficult. As a programmer, I can tell you that when the camera is working and you've got KW's code, it is actually very easy to program with.

To encourage teams from spending time in matches setting up and rather spend time in build period programming robust autonomous modes, an even better idea would be to have 3 lights above your alliance station, spread across the field. At the end of teleoperated period, a single randomly-selected light will light up, and THAT is the zone where you receive bonus points.

[Tt321b]

This is a very interesting topic. I would like to see more autonomous but there are a few problems that could come up when at the end of the game.
1) Doesn't the RC need to be reset to re-engage autonomous mode?
2) How would the RC differentiate between the beginning autonomous and ending autonomous?
3) You wouldn't see any last second efforts to race back to your side of the field and jump on a ramp like in the last two years

To encourage teams from spending time in matches setting up and rather spend time in build period programming robust autonomous modes, an even better idea would be to have 3 lights above your alliance station, spread across the field. At the end of teleoperated period, a single randomly-selected light will light up, and THAT is the zone where you receive bonus points.

I like this idea but how would a robot differentiate between the red alliance side and blue alliance side. Do you remember the teaser during the final matches on Einstein last year? The red alliance home zone could have a red light and a blue alliance home zone could have a blue light and have the robot already knows which alliance it is on so it knows where to go.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by Bongle

I don't think this is the case. If you had an infrared emitter or vision target in the bonus zone, then all teams would have to do in autonomous is spin around until they find the target, then drive towards it. Already in autonomous teams have to acquire the vision target, so that isn't terribly difficult. As a programmer, I can tell you that when the camera is working and you've got KW's code, it is actually very easy to program with.

To encourage teams from spending time in matches setting up and rather spend time in build period programming robust autonomous modes, an even better idea would be to have 3 lights above your alliance station, spread across the field. At the end of teleoperated period, a single randomly-selected light will light up, and THAT is the zone where you receive bonus points.

You are forgetting about the fact that there will be 5 other robots and any number of game pieces and field elements to negotiate around. Navigating autonomously when you don't have prior knowledge of the terrain is extremely complicated. SImply finding a target and driving to it wont work. Over the last two years it has become apparent how much trouble teams have even when they know approximately where the target will be.

Originally Posted by Tt321b

This is a very interesting topic. I would like to see more autonomous but there are a few problems that could come up when at the end of the game.
1) Doesn't the RC need to be reset to re-engage autonomous mode?
2) How would the RC differentiate between the beginning autonomous and ending autonomous?

While I don't know for sure I would tend to assume that the competition port has an extra pin that could be used, other wise it could be taken care of in the default code.


Over all I think this is a very cool idea however it is also an incredibly impractical one. We see enough robots sit still at the begining of the match, why have it happen again at the end?

[Cartwright]

I think putting Autonomous at the end of the game would mix it up a bit. Challenge the teams a little bit further. When they added the lights a few years ago, it created a whole new programming level, but having to do autonomous from an unknown spot on the field with the robot in an unknown position...it could be good.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I truely believe that if the reward was there (IE enough points) then you would see some wild automomous modes at the end of the matches.

[lenergyrlah]

If a robot tips the way the game is now there's always a bit of risk that you'll get hit, but in general the other drivers don't want to drive on your tipped robot. With autonomous at the end I think we'd see a lot more damage to tipped robots.

Also if the game is anything like this year's game it would be WAY harder to score (how is the robot supposed to know which spiders are full & which are available?).

But if the game were similar to Aim High I think endgame autonomous would be way too easy as long as the drivers collected balls & positioned themself in front of the goal prior to autonomous. Then their autonomous would just have to run their scoring mechanism.

Also doesn't FIRST usually have some sort of bonus at the end for ramping or hanging or something? (I honestly don't know as the only FRC games I've seen are Rack & Roll and Aim High). I would think the point of that would be increasing collaberation between alliance partners (definitely a point in 2007) and perhaps also giving "simpler" robots a chance to earn points even if they don't have a scoring mechanism. Do we really want to replace this with an autonomous period (which we have already)?

Sorry for the long post -- the more I typed the more stuff came to mind.