Grades and Student Travel, Etc

[technoL]

I've debated this quite a few times about what side of the fence I want to be on for this one. From personal experiences, I've summed up that grades ARE important.

As with any other extracurricular at our school, our minimum participation requirement 2.0. I completely understand the reasoning behind this. Besides the band, our team misses the most school out of any group. I suppose in this sense we are using GPA as a measure of responsibility. Regardless of the learning situation, you should strive to do your best, thus a 2.0 is not out of anyone's reach on our team. Most of the time it is just laziness and not lack of knowledge. With our minimum requirements, we are not preventing opportunities, but simply ensuring that we have a team of quality members.

As far as the team is concerned, students are usually only held back if a teacher or parent notes that the student is falling behind. We make it clear that it is the responsibility of the student to make up all missed work and settle all discrepancies with their teachers. I do admit that the build season has an effect on grades, and that is understandable (my grades dropped almost a whole letter grade between Jan and April, but I'm finally getting back up to an A average again), but in the end, school is more important. I've been on trips where it seems as if some people have packed more books and homework than clothes, but you do what you need to do. It's hard, but the rewards are worth it.

I have lost the respect of a teacher or two along the way for my dedication to robotics and not fully to their classes, but I've recently gained it back . Many teachers don't see the value of FIRST, and they have little sympathy if you dare mention the word robotics, therefore we need students to keep up the good rep of the program by maintaining their grades. Having students with the highest GPAs in the school and outside success looks great to the administration, rather than a bunch of students with a massive amount of practical knowledge, but nothing but a robot to prove it.

I think that the combined success of academics and robotics is more rewarding that just one or the other. Sure, I can say that I have learned more about physics in robotics than in school, but being able to say that I've done so without sacrificing my grades feels SO much better. It's the same the other way around too. Sure, I might have had straight As, but I didn't get to enjoy anything else. A C+ or B won't hurt much for one quarter.

-No L

[Salik Syed]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

This brings up a sentiment I myself have at times attempted to impart upon several of my teammates (including the illustrious Phrontist): sometimes (not always) it's easier to just jump through the dang hoop. This is something which I believe, though I believe it less now than I did two or three years ago.

That notwithstanding, I do not believe that any student anywhere should be put in a position where they feel obligated to jump through an irrelevant hoop (e.g. math class) in order to get something that is actually important (e.g. FIRST). The choice to do the math (or history, or physics, or English) work should be just that: a choice; specifically it is a choice to use time now in order to possibly (not definitely) broaden one's future options.

In my experience, meaningless assignments are what contribute to the bulk of most classes' grades, and true intellectualism (by which I mean learning for learning's sake) is either ignored or actively discouraged, except by an enlightened few. FIRST is one of the few venues that are available to high school students for true intellectual growth. By introducing a mandatory minimum GPA, a FIRST team is almost invariably going to exclude the students that would benefit most from it: the kids who are sick and tired of playing this ridiculous, pseudo-academic game and want to actually learn something. I happen to be one of these kids, along with (if I may be so bold as to do some conjecturing) every single other member of team 1418, past and present. This is not to say that we are the only students who feel this way: to the contrary, I believe such students are all over the place, and that nearly all of them feel much of the same frustration that I do.

A good GPA will almost always open a few doors for you in the future, but it will very often lead to closed doors in the present: time lost to busywork cannot be devoted to something valuable and interesting. On top of that, the doors that good grades do open can usually be opened some other way. If they can't, they are worthless.

I have to disagree. I agree most classes do promote meaningless work... but I do not believe they actively squash intellectualism.
If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

// This stuff isn't in response to your post but just the thread in general

Secondly, I think people are over-emphasizing "learning" ... Learning can get you far in life but not as far as possible. Ultimately you need to be focused on goals and how to achieve them -- and this often involves doing things that aren't ideal or fun or intellectual. You need to know what you want and how to get it.

I'll admit I was a slacker but I never slacked enough to get lower than a B+
I knew I could get into pretty much any college if I got a 3.9 or above and just took every hard class possible.

Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

I had a lot of the first, a little of the second, and none of the last...!

Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum
those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

[CommanderRachek]

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

[Steve Wherry]

I guess that I am a little taken back by some of the short-sighted statements of students who represent a school prior to representing the FIRST team (whether you like it or not).

Before a FIRST team can succeed, it must have the support of the school which includes the administration and teachers. Most teams have their school name announced during competitons. Yes, there are programs that are not directly associated with a school district, but this is only a few teams.

As a FIRST mentor for 8 years, I have had to jump through hoops, at times, to make sure that our school system continues to support and allow a FIRST team. Basically, we cannot risk allowing students who are not willing to put in at least a minimum amount of effort in the classroom to be a part of the team. I need teachers to allow students to travel. I need the administration to allow our team to travel. I need teachers and administrators to allow our students to miss classes to do a demonstration at an elementary school. The key word: "allow".

Common statements have been, "Well I am bored and do not want to do homework, but FIRST interests me and allows me to grow." Students who get an F or two D's are suspended from our team until the next progress report. If FIRST is that important to them, then they will get there head on straight and play the game. Why? Because the team has to in order to maintain the full support of everyone involved. Yes, this includes those teachers who bore you into not doing homework. In most professions, employees at times have to complete tasks that seem to have no purpose. However, they do it so that they can keep the job. They then keep full support from their bosses.

Administrators play this game called No Child Left Behind, and the graduation rate is extremely important to them...even before our FIRST teams. If a student isn't cutting it in the classroom, then no extra-curriculars. Many students seem to blame the mentors who are getting pressure from the top dogs for inserting grade restrictions. The true blame goes to the student who decides not to cut it in the classroom, but wants to be a cornerstone of FIRST instead. Schools tend not to support this attitude or approach.

Like it or not, teams have to play the game in order to keep the support...or become extinct. Some risks are not worth taking.

[Salik Syed]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.



Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.



I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

You bring up some interesting points! I think I will change my position... slightly.
I agree kids who are motivated don't need to be dragged down by busywork. Unfortunately kids who will learn on their own are a minority and thus our school system is the way that it is. I do see change ... I know our school offers AP courses/Honors and if you truly want to learn those at least place you in a class with *slightly* more motivated people.

And I see where you are coming from when you say that not everyone has to have the same goals to be successful. That is often the viewpoint many teens have ... that "I don't want to get good grades, I don't want to cave to socities standards, I want enjoy life blah blah blah."
But the fact is ultimately you will become a member of society and so you have to (somewhat) cave into societies standards of success (getting a high GPA etc.) You say it now that you don't want money and fancy cars and just want to enjoy life. I'm not saying money is the key to happiness... what I am saying is: Why sell yourself short? Why cut off those possibilities? Ask the people who are flipping burgers for a life if they would want a fancy car and a big house. Perspectives change as you get older, just remember you don't know the answer to everything... especially not the meaning of life
getting a good GPA is not very hard... it takes maybe 6 hours extra a week spent on school!
Certainly no one will argue that being wealthy in and of itself is a BAD thing

"I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities"
I guess my core disagreement with you is that GPA sucks away time that could be better used doing other things
... really it doesn't... do a cost benefit analysis:
6-7 extra hours spent in school /week == 1 to 1.5 Grade points
1 to 1.5 Grade points == The difference between going to college or not.
getting a 2.0 up to a 3.0 or 3.5 is an immense difference ! Even if you are not the type to go to college...
You will ultimately want to do some kind of education correct? (technical school etc.) The better you
do in HS the easier it is to go where you want.
... and you will need to suceed once you are in technical school as well, so you might as well get some practice.

[Travis Hoffman]

Team 48 welcomes all students into its fold regardless of academic standing. All students are welcome to join one of our functional subteams and participate in local events such as community service, fundraising, and our preship scrimmage. Each student on the team is required to pay an activity fee of $150, which can be reduced by participating in our team fundraising activities throughout the season.

Accepting behaviorally and otherwise-challenged students into our program may present a more daunting task to our teacher, engineer, and collegiate mentors, but it's worth it each time we reach a breakthrough with these kids and the light turns on for them. In an environment where many other groups have turned their backs on these kids (perhaps even their own families), they often appreciate a group that welcomes them in and challenges them to become more and do more. With patience and persistence, you can achieve some really surprising results.

In order for our students to travel, they must maintain a minimum 2.5 GPA verified by grade sheets passed around to and signed by all their teachers. These grade sheets are updated at several points throughout the school year. 48's teacher team leaders then also consider other factors in determining who travels - sometimes we have a limited number of travel spots and must make some tough decisions:

Team Service Time - Throughout the season, each Team 48 student fills out a daily time sheet documenting what tasks he/she worked on and for how long. Each daily entry must be signed off by one of the team's mentors. These time sheets are turned into the team teachers each week and saved for the team travel evaluation. With very few exceptions, those who contribute more and demonstrate better attendance are given travel preference over those who aren't around to support the team as much.

Submission of all Fees and Forms - If a student does not pay his/her activity fee in full by the travel period or fails to turn in their insurance forms, FIRST waiver, emergency form, or other required forms, they are not permitted to travel.

The team sets up monitored study tables for any students who drop below a 2.5 into "Team Academic Probation". We find that those who miss the boat on one trip due to grades are more than motivated to bring them up and become eligible for subsequent trips.

All of these requirements are documented in our team handbook that is distributed to students at the beginning of the year.

[Michael Corsetto]

114 has no grade requirement for joining and participating, be it during the build season or at the competitions. This isn't to say that a student who is failing classes will be able to skip school for 2-3 days to travel to a regional. We have had numerous instances where a student has been pulled from a regional due to lack luster grades, not by the team, but by the students parents. Given that students pay for their own travel fees, it doesn't put the team into a hole when someone is unable to attend.