[FTC]: Possible Change in Selection Process for Nationals

[billw]

Hi All,

The following may be entirely incorrect (in fact, I hope that it is), but it has come to my attention that this year’s FTC program may use a different selection mechanism for attending the National championship. If my information is correct, FIRST is considering having only the Inspire award winner receive an automatic invite. All alliance winners would enter a lottery at the conclusion of the season.

If this is the case, I foresee several issues:

1. Winning alliance captains from one or more regional tournaments might not be invited to the nationals.

2. The motivation for kids to make their best effort for a regional might be reduced.

3. Winning a regional and then not being able to attend the nationals would be an incredible letdown for many of these kids.

4. Teams would not be able to plan (or fundraise) to go to the nationals until all regional tournaments have been completed and FRST adds an additional delay while they create a lottery.

5. The winning alliance at the Nationals will, in effect, be able to say: “yes, we are the world champions except for the fact that several of the best teams were not given the opportunity to compete.”

Perhaps I am misguided, but to me the use of words such as “tournament” and “championship” indicate a competitive format which narrows down the field of contestants until the best is actually determined. Those words imply that a system is in place which eliminates as many outside influences as possible. They do not call this a “National Get-Together.” They call it a “championship.”

It can already be demonstrated that the system by which alliance captains are chosen could be better correlated with actual ability. This latest piece will just add further randomness into the process—resulting in not a true champion but in a team, that while probably good, would not by traditional competitive assessment be considered the champion.

If space at the nationals is so constrained, why not include only the alliance captains and their second-choice partners (or only the alliance captains of the two teams that reach the regional finals)? Statistically speaking, the third-choice alliance partner is being selected from the middle third of the teams in a 48-team tournament. I am guessing that most of these teams would concede that they were not representative of the best that the regional had to offer. In fact, I am guessing that most would feel very badly if they were selected by lottery to go to the nationals but their alliance captains were not. Perhaps just these teams could be in a lottery.

You could argue that I am being too competitive, and perhaps that is the case, but I also believe that an achievement should be based upon performance not chance.

It is my sincere hope that my information is incorrect or that this new policy is just one of several being considered. In any case, I have posted it here so that others could comment and FIRST could assess the community’s reaction.

--Bill Wiley
Coach, Vexy Things

[Richard Wallace]

I don't know what, if any, changes FIRST might make to the FTC Championship invitation criteria.

Many 2007 Championship FVC participants have expressed the opinion that the number of qualifying matches was too small, implying either (1) too many invitees or (2) not enough aggregate qualifying time.

If FIRST sees a need to reduce the number of FTC Championship invitees, then I think limiting automatic invitation to Inspire award winners is better than limiting it to winners, alliance captains, first-round picks, etc.

[gblake]

Just to help frame the discussion, here is a description (taken from a release of the 2006-2007 H-A-R rules) of the criteria that should be used to determine which team earned the Inspire Award:

This formally judged award is given to the team that performs well in all categories, that impresses all other teams and who they would always want as an alliance partner and finally, the team the judges’ view that best exemplifies all components of the FIRST Vex Challenge philosophy. This team should serve as an inspiration to other teams. This team excels at the game challenge, acts with gracious professionalism and also understands how to communicate their experiences and knowledge to other teams, and the judges.

Teams at the event will be given ballots that can be used to vote for the competitor that they feel should win the award. These votes, along with the criteria below, will be used by the judges to determine the ultimate winner.

The team will be reviewed to have the following qualities:
· A team who is recognized by both peers and judges to demonstrate respect, gracious professionalism both for team members and fellow teams.
· A team who demonstrates good communications and teamwork skills within the team as well as with their alliances.
· A team that can communicate clearly about their robot design; its design impresses other FVC teams and the judges; and the robot consistently performs well during matches

Blake

[billw]

Don't get the worng idea: I am totally in favor of the Inspire Award.

Let me also add that if the commnity feels that a lottery system is appropriate, then I will be more than happy to support such a consensus.

[fredliu168]

I absolutely disagree with a lottery system of selection of Alliance winners for the world championships. The teams who worked hard enough to win the regionals deserve the chance to go to Atlanta.

However, I do understand that FIRST is fairly limited in terms of teams allowed for world championships. Why not just decrease regionals to create regionals which have more teams. This will limit the number of teams qualifying for the world championships. I understand there were 3 regionals in California. This could be decreased to 1 state regional instead.
I also agree with Bill's method of automatically qualifying the first and second member of the alliance. Although I think it is unfair to the third team of the alliance, much of the time the third team is considered to be worse than many members of the other seeds.

Lastly I would like to point out that FIRST may wish to consider placing the eliminination matches for VEX on the saturday. It could easily be placed in the morning before the Einstein matches, and probably before the finals/semis of the four divisions. This way, teams could probably have 6 qualifying matches instead of 4.

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

However, I do understand that FIRST is fairly limited in terms of teams allowed for world championships. Why not just decrease regionals to create regionals which have more teams. This will limit the number of teams qualifying for the world championships.

It's often difficult to find a venue that can hold a larger number of teams, without incurring great expense, which in turn ends up being charged to the teams. Tough balancing act, finding a location that suits the needs of the program while trying to keep costs to a minimum.
And I might add that in 2006 there were only 6 regionals and teams were ASSIGNED which one they would attend, resulting in a lot of travel expenses (it was fun for me to meet teams from across the U.S. but difficult for those teams to make the trip for a one-day event!)

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by KathieK

And I might add that in 2006 there were only 6 regionals and teams were ASSIGNED which one they would attend, resulting in a lot of travel expenses (it was fun for me to meet teams from across the U.S. but difficult for those teams to make the trip for a one-day event!)

I don't recall being assigned an FVC event in 2006, and in fact the reason we chose to attend the Peachtree Regional was the fact that we could opt to have our FVC team compete there as well (Peachtree was also two days long for FVC).


In terms of the current problem at hand, the solution is in fact, very simple, and is theoretically already in place.

Originally Posted by usfirst.org

The 2007 FIRST Tech Challenge season will consist ofthree kinds of tournaments:

A Local or League Tournament is a small event run by volunteers in your area. The events are usually anywhere from 3-20 teams, and do not have to give out awards or do any kind of formal judging. These tournaments do not qualify teams to attend the FIRST Tech Challenge World Championship Event in Atlanta, but can be used for practice and 'fun' play.

A Qualifying Tournament is formed in an area only when a Championship Tournament in that area is already full or close to capacity. This type of event essentially allows teams to compete for spots at their closest Championship Tournament. This type of event does include judging aspects, and awards will be given to teams.

A Championship Tournament is the largest (or perhaps the only) tournament in an area. This type of event abides by certain standards in format, judging, awards, and overall quality of the event. Your area's FIRST Tech Challenge Affiliate Partner is directly responsible for running your local Championship Tournament. Some Championship Tournaments may require that teams win at a Qualifying Tournament in order to participate, simply because of size restrictions.

The solution is very simple indeed. Reduce the number of "Championship" tournaments, and turn other "Championship tournaments" in the area into Qualifying events. These areas may have to be rather large (often much larger than are currently considered), but it is a feasible and existing solution to a problem that must be amended.
Rather than having Championship tournaments in New Jersey, Delaware and Pennsylvania, just have one and the other become an qualifying event. Same with Florida, South Carolina and Georgia, and the 3 California events. Just with those three suggestions you've eliminated possibly 23 invitations to Atlanta. And those were only ones I came up with off the top of my head.
And the fact is, that many teams already compete in multiple of these championship events, so it's proof that many competitors CAN attend multiple events of relative distance away. Even 3549, who brought up this potential problem, competed in Farmville and Pennsylvania, before qualifying and competing in Atlanta.

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The solution is very simple indeed. Reduce the number of "Championship" tournaments, and turn other "Championship tournaments" in the area into Qualifying events. These areas may have to be rather large (often much larger than are currently considered), but it is a feasible and existing solution to a problem that must be amended.

Another advantage of more Qualifiers and fewer Championships is that of space. There are very few venues that can hold a 50-team Championship (typically, colleges), and these venues are highly in demand for other events. At the jr. college where I teach, the gym must be reserved at least 18 months in advance (the only open dates typically are over Christmas vacation) and rental is very costly. In contrast, many high schools have space for a 20-team Qualifier; thus, there are more choices of open dates, and sometimes the facility can be used for free. This puts fewer constraints on the tournament organizers, and makes it more likely that the tournament can be held on a desirable date (like Saturdays, rather than Sundays, and not on major holiday weekends). More convenient dates --> more teams willing to participate. Finally, having more and smaller events spreads the events out geographically, potentially bringing FTC to a broader population.

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I don't recall being assigned an FVC event in 2006, and in fact the reason we chose to attend the Peachtree Regional was the fact that we could opt to have our FVC team compete there as well (Peachtree was also two days long for FVC).

I apologize. I confirmed that you are correct, teams were given a choice. Somehow in my aging memory bank I recalled that teams were assigned a regional event that year. Time for a new hard drive I think.

[The_Wizard]

If FIRST wants to lessen the number o people attending the championship, they shouldn't make the alliance captains worry. If they wanted, they could change the rules so the to finalist alliance captains qualified and the winning alliance just got the reward. Though I am not in favor of this method, I also think FIRST should use a swiss tournoment style. <thats a link)

[sovierr]

Originally Posted by The_Wizard

If FIRST wants to lessen the number o people attending the championship, they shouldn't make the alliance captains worry. If they wanted, they could change the rules so the to finalist alliance captains qualified and the winning alliance just got the reward. Though I am not in favor of this method, I also think FIRST should use a swiss tournoment style. <thats a link)

This would drastically change the alliance selection strategies. Teams would never "jump up" to accept an invitation to play with a higher seeded team because they would no longer be an alliance captain elligible of earningan automatic bid.

[Andrew Bates]

I would be very disappointed in FIRST if they decided to do a lottery system and/or deny the winning teams from regionals into the Championships. I have a problem with this for several reasons,

A) if they are running out of space why not cut down on the number of FRC teams. If I remember correctly pretty much any FRC who wants to go to Atlanta can, all they have to do is register. I think it may be odd teams one year even the next. You could easily cut down on the number of FRC teams by just limiting the number of "non winning" teams that get into Atlanta.

B) FIRST is working to expand the FTC game right, so why limit the number of teams allowed to go to Atlanta. Seems like a good way to discourage groups from forming FTC teams.

C) I personally would reconsider spending the amount of time on my teams robot as I do if I may not even get a chance to go to Atlanta even IF my team won a regional. Is it worth my time to leave the championship up to a lottery system.

What game is FIRST trying to play here? They say they are trying to promote the FTC, yet their policy, and the fact that they are making several changes that would likely discourage teams from competing make me think otherwise.

[The_Wizard]

No matter who ends up attending in Atlanta, I am not a very large fan of ranking points and do think that using a swiss tournament style will greatly increase the fairness of the qualifying rounds.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by corpralchee

...
C) I personally would reconsider spending the amount of time on my teams robot as I do if I may not even get a chance to go to Atlanta even IF my team won a regional. Is it worth my time to leave the championship up to a lottery system.
...

1) I too will dislike a lottery.

2) Regardless of a lottery, please take a minute to do some introspection and ponder whether you think winning an FTC Inspiration award would be a better goal than winning the field competition? Maybe you will decide to spend that time you mention on satisfying the Inspiration award's criteria???? Winning an Inspiration award is rumored to be the non-lottery path to the World Championship....

Remember, that is what the "I" in FIRST stands for.

Blake