2008 game confusion thread

[TomZ]

Originally Posted by Ragnarokae

It's because you can only have a maximum of four commands.

But technically you are only sending out four commands, in different orders to different things

For example if you press #1 while the arm is down, and it goes up, and then you hit it again, and it goes down, wouldn't that be considered two commands?

[GBIT]

Originally Posted by TomZ

But technically you are only sending out four commands, in different orders to different things

For example if you press #1 while the arm is down, and it goes up, and then you hit it again, and it goes down, wouldn't that be considered two commands?

yes and i believe is not allowed...

[Squab]

a question my team was wondering about witch we think is a yes is that if the balls are never removed from the overpass will they still count for the 24 points (12 each)?

[663.keith]

Originally Posted by TomZ

But technically you are only sending out four commands, in different orders to different things

For example if you press #1 while the arm is down, and it goes up, and then you hit it again, and it goes down, wouldn't that be considered two commands?

in addition to rules <R65>, <R69>, and <G01>, rule <G49> clearly states that you must have only 4 distinct actions that the robocoach can signal

<G49> ROBOCOACH Signaling – If the ROBOCOACH will be providing signals to the ROBOT, then prior to the start of each MATCH the ROBOCOACH must place a Signaling Card in the ROBOCOACH STATION. The Signaling Card shall be a 3-inch by 5-inch card listing the one to four actions that can be commanded by the ROBOCOACH.

see also my post here
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=25

[Dan Petrovic]

I did notice that they cleared up any maximum size confusion by changing the max size from 72" x 72" to an 80" diameter.

<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION
that exceeds the size dimensions specified in Rule <R11>. While in the PLAYING
CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT may expand up to a maximum horizontal dimension of 80
inches (e.g. all parts of the ROBOT must fit within an imaginary 80-inch-diameter upright
cylinder). There are no height limits for a ROBOT in its PLAYING CONFIGURATION at any
time after the start of the MATCH other than those specified in Rule <G36> about not
exceeding the maximum permitted height while in the opponent’s HOME STRETCH.

That makes things a lot easier to understand and it is one good thing FIRST has done to clear up confusing rules.

[lukevanoort]

Although it clarifys, I really dislike that rule. If you are an arm robot, you probably will make the long deminsion your sides for front/back stability. So, your robot is 38 inches long plus several inches of pool noodle. The balls are 40", so assuming that your gripper is 25" long (in order to get past the center of the ball), your arm can only extend out of the front of your robot ~15". To me, that seems like it unnecessarily stifles some arm designs.

[Blair Frank]

I have a question regarding <G28>

<G28> Bulldozing TRACKBALLS - Inadvertent bulldozing of TRACKBALLS while the ROBOT
moves around the TRACK is allowed whether or not the ROBOT is in POSSESSION of, or
HERDING, a TRACKBALL.

Does anyone know what the heck bulldozing is? It's not defined in the manual, and nobody on my team has an explanation for what it is either.

[Boothy180]

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

I have a question regarding <G28>


Does anyone know what the heck bulldozing is? It's not defined in the manual, and nobody on my team has an explanation for what it is either.

Inadvertandly running into Trackballs in normal play with no intent to herd (control) them. It is basically to prevent one from getting a penalty for herding while in poseession if herding is not the intent, but you hit a trackball.

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by Boothy180

Inadvertandly running into Trackballs in normal play with no intent to herd (control) them. It is basically to prevent one from getting a penalty for herding while in poseession if herding is not the intent, but you hit a trackball.

Still, an official definition would be nice. Add it to the list of things to ask!

[Blair Frank]

Originally Posted by Boothy180

Inadvertandly running into Trackballs in normal play with no intent to herd (control) them. It is basically to prevent one from getting a penalty for herding while in poseession if herding is not the intent, but you hit a trackball.

Thanks! I can't believe I didn't see that, but it makes a lot of sense now. Of course, once the official Q&A forums are up we'll get FIRST's definition, but this is great for now. Thank you so much.

[vhcook]

There are a huge number of threads that are covering this issue, and I'm not sure which one to pick, so I'm going with this one. I'm hoping this will help whoever wins the race to ask about these when the Q&A opens up. (Or I may just be indulging a tendency to overanalyze things.)

I am assuming that the home stretch is the area from the alliance station wall to the team colored stripe/color coded piping side of the overpass (i.e. the end of the finish line), meaning the entire structure of the overpass is within the corresponding home stretch.

I'm finding two visible and one implied apparent rule violations in the game animation.

The one that I've been seeing a lot of comment on is at 1:51. The red forklift robot in the blue homestretch extends its forks well above the overpass to knock down the red trackball during hybrid period. This appears to be a violation of G36 and is the one that keeps getting mentioned in discussion.

<G36> HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

This may happen again during teleoperated mode at 2:17, since the blue gripperbot in the background is in the red home stretch and appears to be doing something above the camera frame. The blue ball with the dots had still been in the red-side overpass at the end of hybrid mode, and we see the blue gripperbot take possession of it from the ground at 2:32 in the back half of the red lane.

The other one that bothers me is at about 2:57. Blue gripper robot in the blue home stretch breaks the plane of the lane divider and the red finish line in a clockwise direction to descore the red trackball on the overpass during teleoperated mode. If I'm not misinterpreting it, this appears to be a double violation of G22:

<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

As appears to be the consensus, these two rules appear to be problematic in combination, both from the perspective of getting one's second trackball without help from the other alliance and descoring. Descoring appears to have been intended to be legal, per G29.

<G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted

The combination of G22 and G36 would indicate that the opposing team will have placed them on the overpass above their own finish line (assuming both of their trackballs were in play at some point). My analysis would indicate that the only legal methods to descore in the opponent's lane or retrieve your own second trackball would be:

a) Knocking the ball off by carefully but energetically striking the very small area of the ball below the 6' mark (bouncing it out of the overpass in an uncontrolled direction)

b) Carefully but energetically striking the very small area of the ball extending into the non-home-stretch portion of the opponent's lane (sending the ball clockwise).

c) Striking the ball with a thrown trackball (of your own color, since you probably have to take possession (G29) to throw it, and you wouldn't want to miss and hurdle your opponent's trackball anyway) launched from below the 6' mark. If successful, this would result in a fairly crowd-pleasing elastic collision that would send trackballs flying in two directions at high speed.

I suspect the intent of G36 was to reduce the ability to deflect the other alliance's hurdling attempt, but I'm not pleased with the side effects.