How many RoboCoach Commands?

[compwiz2008]

I know that the RoboCoach can only have four buttons, but what if those four buttons did different things in Hybrid mode than in TeleOperate mode. I'm thinking of having technically eight commands. Four in Hybrid and Four in TeleOperation. For example the programming might look a little like this:

If in Hybrid {
If 1 pressed {
Do action 1
}

If 2 pressed {
Do action 2
}

If 3 pressed {
Do action 3
}

If 4 pressed {
Do action 4
}}

If in TeleOperate{
If 1 pressed {
Do action 5
}

If 2 pressed {
Do action 6
}

If 3 pressed {
Do action 7
}

If 4 pressed {
Do action 8
}}

Rule G01 and G02 states that the robot can only respond to four signals from the RoboCoach, but the signal that changes the mode from Hybrid to TeleOperate does not come from the RoboCoach, it comes from the Robot Operator Interface.

Did I just find a loophole?

Unfortunately, now that I think about it more, why would I use the IR Remote during TeleOperate if the Operator Interface has plenty of Inputs? Expecially since the OI has less frequency interference than the IR remote (from what I've been reading) and is more predictable.

[ewankoff]

along the same line of thought, can you program your robot to respond to a series of comands such as, 1,2,3 or 2,4,1 to be two distinct operations?

[bluexice27]

We are't even considering using the remote unless its the first few seconds of hybrid mode considering every one else is going to be using there remotes and the command might not be sent and we mite just screw up our whole programming , and lose our chance of scoring in the hybrid mode.

[yoyodyne]

I think that the Robocoach can only make the robot do 4 things during a match. As for the changing from hybrid to tele - the second bullet of <R69> specifically disallows that.

• The ROBOT shall not dynamically change the recognized command set during a MATCH.

As far as combining commands to create more combinations the last bullet of <R65> explicitly disallows that

• not use changes in the signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (e.g. Morse
code)

We were of course also thinking about techniques to increase the number of commands and it has become clear that there can only be the 4 that are on the card posted on the Robocoach station.

Good luck,

Greg

[Chrisms]

it's not a loophole, just creativity of coding.

also, think about this:
if you had one of your commands "cycle" through a list of 3 other commands, you could have an infinite amount of commands from 4 inputs. however... your robocoach will go nuts trying to figure out which command is which. Maybe if you had a card counter or something.. hmmm.

[Laaba 80]

I'm not positive, but I think I remember reading that you can only have 4 commands from the IR and that you cant do any of that stuff, but I may be wrong. Even if you could do that, you have to display a 3 by 5 notecard saying everything that you may tell the robot to do. If you use the combinations like that, you will need alot of notecards.
Joey

[Uberbots]

one of the rules is that you cannot dynamically change control sets... sorry!

[EricH]

From the manual:

Originally Posted by Manual 7.3.2 and 7.3.6

<G01> HYBRID PERIOD - The HYBRID PERIOD is the 15-second period at the start of the MATCH. Driver control of the ROBOT is not permitted at this time. During this period, the ROBOTS may react only to sensor inputs and commands programmed into the onboard control system. The only external signals that may be received by the ROBOT are those sent from ALLIANCE ROBOCOACHES. No external signals are permitted from any other source. The ROBOT may react to no more than four distinct external commands provided by the ROBOCOACH. All ROBOT safety rules are still applicable during the HYBRID PERIOD. The HYBRID PERIOD ends when the arena timer displays zero seconds left in the period.

<G49> ROBOCOACH Signaling – If the ROBOCOACH will be providing signals to the ROBOT, then prior to the start of each MATCH the ROBOCOACH must place a Signaling Card in the ROBOCOACH STATION. The Signaling Card shall be a 3-inch by 5-inch card listing the one to four actions that can be commanded by the ROBOCOACH.

(emphasis mine)

So, the long and the short of the matter is, you get four commands that can't change during a match. (Between matches is another story.)

[marccenter]

Do you think it is within the spirit of the rules to use multiple key combinations (1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, .i.e) to
activate the four different operating modes? This way,
a team could reduce the likelihood of another remote
operating their robot during the hybrid period.
The 3 by 5 cards would still say, for example, forward,
left, right, and reverse. Forward could be 1-2-3, Left
4-5-6, Right 7-8-9). This should maybe be a new thread.

[GBIT]

Originally Posted by marccenter

Do you think it is within the spirit of the rules to use multiple key combinations (1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, .i.e) to
activate the four different operating modes? This way,
a team could reduce the likelihood of another remote
operating their robot during the hybrid period.
The 3 by 5 cards would still say, for example, forward,
left, right, and reverse. Forward could be 1-2-3, Left
4-5-6, Right 7-8-9). This should maybe be a new thread.

i cant see why not seeing it is still only four actions. correct me if im wrong.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by GBIT

i cant see why not seeing it is still only four actions. correct me if im wrong.

It's also harder to do. And, see <R65>:

Originally Posted by Section 8.3.8

<R65> SIGNALING DEVICES shall be designed to communicate signals from the ROBOCOACH to the ROBOT. SIGNALING DEVICES are excluded from Rule <R64>. SIGNALING DEVICES shall:
• use either passive (no emission of any electromagnetic radiation) or active (emits some restricted form of electromagnetic radiation) means of communication
• be hand held and completely supported by the ROBOCOACH when operated
• does not attach to anything or anyone other than the ROBOCOACH
• exclusively receives input from, and is operated by, the ROBOCOACH
• not receive any input or feedback directly from the ROBOT (the ROBOCOACH may receive feedback from the ROBOT and use it to control the SIGNALING DEVICE)
• be no larger than 3 feet tall by 3 feet wide by 1 foot deep (to fit within the confined volume of the ROBOCOACH STATION
• remain entirely within the ROBOCOACH STATION
• use a maximum of four different inputs from the ROBOCOACH (e.g. use four different buttons) during any single MATCH
• communicate no more than four messages, states or conditions to the ROBOT (please refer to Rule <R69> and Rule <G01> for additional information) during any single MATCH.

(emphasis mine)

Can we put the lawyers to bed now? I'm pretty sure the intent is FOUR buttons control FOUR commands, in a 1:1 ratio.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by EricH

Can we put the lawyers to bed now? I'm pretty sure the intent is FOUR buttons control FOUR commands, in a 1:1 ratio.

I'm mostly interested in figuring out what a "command" is so I can make sure that my students are doing it properly, and so I can explain what they're doing wrong when the issue inevitably arises. I could envision somebody writing this piece of code:

int *fwd[] = {&relay1_fwd, &relay2_fwd, &relay3_fwd, &relay4_fwd, &relay5_fwd};
int *rev[] = {&relay1_rev, &relay2_rev, &relay3_rev, &relay4_rev, &relay5_rev};
int index = 0;

while(true){
  if(button == 1)
    index = (index + 1) % 5;
  if(button == 2){
    *(fwd[index]) = !*(fwd[index]);
    *(rev[index]) = !*(rev[index]);
  }
}

And their index card reads:

Button 1: Chooses a relay
Button 2: Toggles a relay

So, using two buttons, I am able to turn any of five relays on or off. My command set never changes. I'd call this two commands. I suspect that some people would call it ten, but that seems like a bizarrely strict interpretation, and I'd expect a lot of askance looks from anyone I tried to tell that to. If that is indeed the case, I expect that a lot of teams won't do it properly for a lack of understanding, and that it will be impossible to police.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jgannon

I'm mostly interested in figuring out what a "command" is so I can make sure that my students are doing it properly, and so I can explain what they're doing wrong when the issue inevitably arises. I could envision somebody writing this piece of code:
[snip]
So, using two buttons, I am able to turn any of five relays on or off. My command set never changes. I'd call this two commands. I suspect that some people would call it ten, but that seems like a bizarrely strict interpretation, and I'd expect a lot of askance looks from anyone I tried to tell that to. If that is indeed the case, I expect that a lot of teams won't do it properly for a lack of understanding, and that it will be impossible to police.

I should have said actions. The rules say actions as well. (Granted, you've got a point, but I think common sense should win over the lawyers in this case.)

[Vogel648]

• The ROBOT shall not dynamically change the recognized command set during a MATCH.
I was under the impression that this rule was to keep people from choosing which 4 signals to recognize after the match had already started, not it couldn't change it's reaction based on it. So if I were commanding my arm to a specific angle during autonomous it wouldn't be illegal for that to move the arm up sometimes and not others I don't think. But what if I had a + button a - button and 2 toggle mode buttons. The two buttons ALWAYS toggle the mode, the + and the - always effect the mode in the + or - direction... It's really hard to interpret such a rule if you read it as "your robot can only react in 4 different ways to inputs", which is why I think that really can't be.

My 2 cents
-nrv

[Uberbots]

Originally Posted by EricH

I should have said actions. The rules say actions as well. (Granted, you've got a point, but I think common sense should win over the lawyers in this case.)

But the thing is... does it mean physical actions or any action? because you could just map a button to a bit in a 4 bit number, and the remote will not send any encoded messages over nor will it be changing the message set dynamically. granted that would be a beast for the robocoach to control, but still...