Defense, It's still here.

[brentmcjunkin]

whoever said there is no defence this year is stupid there are actually some good defecive teams out there

[SL8]

Originally Posted by brentmcjunkin

whoever said there is no defence this year is stupid there are actually some good defecive teams out there

Please do not insult or attack people in your post. The"whoever said there is no defence this year is stupid " was completely unnecesary. And Good syntax does help convey your message.

Yes, there are good "defective" robots out there, but then, they are no longer so defective.

[Jonathan Norris]

I have a funny felling that this year is going to be alot like '05 where yes you could play some defense if you wanted to, but the opportunity for penalties is just too high. It really just depends on how the refs manage the game and basically outlaw any major interaction with scoring robots.

[Madison]

I think, perhaps with the sole exception of overt contact of a hurdling robot, defense is completely proper and viable.

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

Further, despite rules about "bumping to pass," there are no specific prohibitions against gently escorting robots in one direction or another. I understand and appreciate that there are rules governing behavior in attempts to pass on the field, but those rules do not preclude me from having no intention to pass and acting accordingly.

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I think, perhaps with the sole exception of overt contact of a hurdling robot, defense is completely proper and viable.

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

Further, despite rules about "bumping to pass," there are no specific prohibitions against gently escorting robots in one direction or another. I understand and appreciate that there are rules governing behavior in attempts to pass on the field, but those rules do not preclude me from having no intention to pass and acting accordingly.

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

Agreed. and this is what I was asking about.

With the removal of the 6' height restriction is it legal to block hurdling (not interfere with the hurdling robot)?

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I mentioned in another thread the potential, with <G36> absent, to erect a wall in front of or behind your opponent's overpass such that hurdling is impossible. Coupled with a drive that allowed you to move sideways, you could become very effective at blocking hurdling attempts while never contacting the opposing robots at all. I cannot imagine how at any time contact initiated by their robot could result in a penalty upon your team. That notion is ludicrous.

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

[David Brinza]

I think there'll be plenty of defense, just not the "smash and crash" kind that FIRST is rightfully trying to discourage.

I can imagine alliance strategies involving "keep away" from their opponent's effective hurdling robots. Slow driving robots will challenge the driving skills of the "rabbits". Don't expect uninhibited scoring in Overdrive...it will be a lot harder grab trackballs and move quickly around the track than some might think.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by dlavery

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

Beyond this nothing else springs to mind, though I've just woken up. Again, I can't imagine that any contact by any opposing robot unto me can (or should) be considered overt, blatant or aggressive. The caveat is that any robot in possession of a trackball and in its home stretch can be considered to be "hurdling," and contact with them or their ball as such is a very bad thing.

In circumstances, however, where we're defending from behind their finish line and, as I suspect many teams will, they've released the ball to complete the hurdle -- that team no longer satisfies the conditions of HURDLING -- and, moreso, we are really doing nothing more than HERDING at a height of 7 feet. I can't imagine how a wall, sitting innocently on one side of the overpass and bouncing balls away, is doing anything wrong.

Of course, we're not building this robot, so my interest in this is almost purely academic.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dlavery

If you try this approach, you may need a few extra team members to help you count all your penalty points. There are a few rules that very effectively combine to prevent you from doing this.

-dave

Just curious, as this confused me, what rules does it break? I can't seem to find any that are violated, but you are Dave Lavery after all; I kind of trust you .

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I think we'll see more defense than a lot of folks think, but I don't know that there are many viable strategies that for defense that might require a robot design different than something designed to score.

And this is the beauty of this year's game - I always enjoy it when teams can squeeze more strategic functionality out of one robot system.

An arm can be used for offense and defense.

A stout drive can be used for stability in guiding the balls around the field, as well as dictating where you want to be on the track when it's advantageous for you to be "over there" instead of where you're at now. Say, for when there are those moments you'd rather run on the inside track to push the quick guys to the outside of the track and negate the benefits of their speed with the longer distance they'd then have to travel to make those laps.....

[Ze Møøse]

I think defense in this year's game is going to be pretty much limited to interaction with the opposing alliance's trackballs rather than playing defense against the robots themselves. In my opinion knocking an opponent's trackball back a quad as Bongle mentioned is probably the most viable defensive maneuver in this game.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Many people have been complaining about the fact that "There's no defense this year." I don't believe this, every year there has been some way of playing defense. It's true there won't be as much of the same kind of defense as Rack-and-Roll or Aim High, but they were different games. One thing 973 can do well is defense so I've put a lot of thought into this.

Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? This stops them from getting points, which is what I always understood defense to be.

Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. If you're pushing the robot you shouldn't be in contact with their trackball.

This falls under

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points.

An example of this: Lets say I have a typical six wheel kit bot and the "only" thing it can do is race around the track for points. Lets also say that one of the robots on the opposing side is a hurdling robot that operates via scissor lift and omni drive. (Nothing against scissor lifts, just an example) The hurdling robot has a Trackball in their possession and is just rounding the corner to enter their alliance zone. I should be able to use my kit bot and push the hurdling robot over their alliance line fairly easily. They won't have started to hurdle yet so G42 is not in effect. The trackball will cross the line and will have to make the rounds around the track again in order to be hurdled. If I just have my kit bot harass the hurdling bot every time they get near their scoring area I'm playing a success defense. I'm also scoring points by going around the track. Win-Win.

<G42> Protection While HURDLING – A ROBOT in the process of HURDLING shall not be subjected to overt, blatant, or aggressive contact that interferes with the HURDLING attempt. Each incident will be PENALIZED. Bumping to signal to pass (see Rule <G38>) a HURDLING ROBOT is permitted if no passing lane is open (see Rule <G43>). Incidental contact while passing the HURDLING ROBOT or otherwise engaged in normal game play is permitted.

This is in no way saying I'm going to build a kit bot, but this would be a way for a rookie team with many resources to build a good robot.

Is this un-GP in anyones mind? Any more ideas about how defense can be played in Overdrive? It's different from previous games we've seen yes, but it's still FIRST and I haven't seen a FIRST game yet that you can't find some way of playing defense in.

Part of this I posted in another thread previously, but I think that it dissevers a thread of it's own. Apologies in advance for errors, it's 5:21 am and I haven't gotten any sleep

I think this is a blatant violation of the intent of the rules.

Any way that the rules can be read to allow defense (pushing/interaction between one robot that is trying to stop another from getting to a certain location, or from doing a certain task) seems to be complete lawyerism to me.

I think everyone is sick of seing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I would be very disappointed if teams took to subterfuge to attempt to play defense (ie: "bumping" to pass, by pushing a team halfway across the field, etc).

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think everyone is sick of seeing boxes on wheels that just run around the field bashing the heck out of anyone who can score (Let's see how long it takes for Travis to come in here and tell me some people enjoy it ). My understanding of the rules is that they are intended to keep this from happening.

I have to say, some people do enjoy defense. There is a certain skill required to do it properly, and the teams who have figured out the trick find it fun.

Also, it is always nice to have the safety net of defense to fall back on if your offense strategy doesn't work...

-Travis

[Tetraman]

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Did anyone also see this half-loophole?

You don't need to circle the field. As long as you stay behind the lines you can stay in an area and play some interesting def.

I'm pretty sure you'd be breaking <G40>. I bolded where.

Originally Posted by Section 7 - <G40>

IMPEDING Traffic – ROBOTS shall not intentionally IMPEDE the flow of traffic around the TRACK. A ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK. A ROBOT can be found to be IMPEDING traffic if:
• the ROBOT is traveling slowly relative to the approaching ROBOT, and moving to prevent the approaching ROBOT from passing, or
• the ROBOT is stopped on the TRACK and there is no clear lane of passage for the opposing ROBOT, or
• the ROBOT pins an opposing ROBOT against an arena element, border, or another ROBOT
Note that a ROBOT is not IMPEDING traffic if:
• there is a clear “passing lane” around the ROBOT, or
• the IMPEDING ROBOT and the approaching ROBOT are from the same ALLIANCE (i.e. a ROBOT can not impede another ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE), or
• the ROBOT is in the process of HURDLING (except as noted in Rule <G43>).