Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?

[Devibeast]

Most likely, the robots that do hurdle will either be highly ineffective or slow. I predict the majority of the points will be made in hybrid from going around the track.

[Swampdude]

It wouldn't be hard to win with 3 good "hybrid" bots and a bunch of defense afterwards. But I'm sure that a very good hurdler will be in every winning alliance. I agree with waialua359, hybrid is where its at. Even though there's rules on impeding, there's still going to be a lot of traffic to contend with. Especially wherever the balls are.
To answer the question though, just running laps will get difficult in the inevitable traffic. Unless you're totally committed to that, and very small, like 148.

[R.C.]

i'm thinking two hurdlers, hopely arms and then a ultra fast herder

[Ryan Dognaux]

I think it depends. In the earlier regionals, you'll probably see 2 hurdlers and a herding robot / race robot. One robot could move each trackball to the next robot theoretically, but I don't think that will happen too much. That 3rd robot in each alliance is going to be interesting to say the least, but I think if you've got a quick drive and can manipulate the balls by knocking them off the overpass and herding them if necessary, then you're going to look very attractive to an alliance partner.

By the championship though you'll probably see alliances made of 3 very quick hurdlers.

[budly99]

I think being able to keep the ball away from the other team is highly UNDERATED on this board. If you push the ball backwards past the lines, a robot from the other team would have to go all the way around, past the finish line, and miss the opportunity to hurdle the ball.

There are a lot of stratagies to be used for robots who can not hurdle !!!!!!

[Lil' Lavery]

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.
Later on, as drive teams get more skilled and educated, and as robots come together more, we'll see more coordination. More "relays" and "passing" will come into play, and teams will learn what it takes to maintain control of the ball (which, especially with shooters, makes it important to have three teams at least capable of manipulating the track balls well).
Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field. The question is, how much further can they make it than a 217 (or other speedy hurdler)?
The only real advantage to not having the ability to hurdle is the ability to make a tiny robot (ala 148 and 1519), but we have yet to see how much of an advantage that really is. Especially given that neither of them have mechanisms designed to maneuver the trackball, and that their small size hurts their ability to control trackballs and the traffic on the track.
Ultimately, a vast majority of the major "factors" (good bots) will at least have the ability to hurdle. Not all of them will use it all the time, but everything a lap-bot can do, so can a fast hurdler if it wants to. And most alliances will likely want and need the flexibility of the third hurdler to help enhance their offense.

Then again, I am a fan of the spread offense (football), the torpedo (hockey), the Phoenix Suns style offense (basketball), the 296/217/522 alliance of 2006, and the 1595/116/93 alliance of 2007. So my strategic perceptions may be a bit biased...

[DPTeam270Driver]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field. The question is, how much further can they make it than a 217 (or other speedy hurdler)?

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

[Scott Carpman]

Originally Posted by DPTeam270Driver

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

But then that brings up the argument: Is the sacrifice worth it?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by DPTeam270Driver

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

Personally, I don't think that'd be worth it, as you're not only attempting to prevent them from completing laps, but sacrificing your lap points and preventing your partners from completing laps. Additionally, I'd like to see how well your bot can maintain it's position when it's clipped at high speeds by a 148 or 1519. I'd think that they'd be fully capable of nudging past you on the inside of the track. You'd slow them down some, but I highly doubt you'd stop them.

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.

I think this is where Sean hit the nail on its head, or so to speak. In the early weeks, as always, there will probably be a shortage of robot that work. The speedy bots will have an advantage there, as they are only trying to get a drive train (and maybe a ball knocker) working, so there's probably a higher probability of those bots working well.

As the weeks go on, more and more robots will achieve their full potential, in which case there will be less of a market for lap runners, unless they are extraordinary (see 148, 1519). I know that unless the lap runner is amazing, I'd rather have a backup hurdler in case one breaks, because it can shuttle balls at least as well (presumably having a mechanism to posses balls) and giving us a backup, and an open door to alternate strategies. When you have only two, or even just one hurdler, you're pretty much boxed into a specific robot hurdling. By the later regionals, especially the deep ones (Florida, Finger Lakes, Toronto, Great Lakes come to mind), any strategy flexibility you could get will probably be well worth it.

[waialua359]

Here's more food for thought.
Last year, if the alliance only had 1 ringer scorer, the opposing alliance always had 1 defensive robot on that scorer and in other cases, sometimes 2 of them blocking the scorer.
If an alliance this year only has 1 hurdler, I would strategize against that one robot with one of our alliance bots strictly to make it difficult for them to grab/pick up balls and to shoot/hurdle. Bumping into balls is still great defense. Keeping stationary in their way is still great defense.
The other disadvantage is at end of matches. If the opposing team has two bots placing balls on the overpass at the end of matches, there is no way for that bot to knock off or prevent both balls from staying up on the overpass.

My point is that I think teams definitely need 2 hurdlers and it will be a huge disadvantage if a team only has 1 hurdler that can knock or place balls on the overpass. Most of the lappers that I have seen are built for speed, compact, and manueverable. They wont have ball poppers to knock balls off the overpass. **not talking about the exceptional bots like 217 who is hella fast too**
Most of the posts that i've read agrees that you need at least 2 hurdlers also. I would want the 3rd bot to be a great defensive bot who can knock balls off the overpass with great efficiency. Choosing a speedster would be lower on my list, only because they cant knock balls off the overpass.
Many matches last year were won on bonus points at the end of matches. I dont think this year will be any different.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field.

Three laps would be really extraordinary! Two laps, though, isn't out of the realm of possibility...

For example, take a look at 1519 - Video of "Speed Racer" in Autonomous.

[Donut]

I certainly think and hope there's a place for them this year, our team built their design based on that fact.

What I haven't decided yet is which type of non-hurdling bot will be most effective. Just as there is a shooter vs. arm debate, for non-hurdlers I have the question of whether herders or lap runners will be more important.

Lap runners have the ability to score significant points without a ball just because of their speed and size, and will be the most valuable robots for hybrid if they can avoid collisions. With their maneuverability they are also well suited to play positional defense by parking in front of parts of the overpass to give a hurdler a more difficult time getting to it. On the down side every lap runner I've seen has no way to interact with the trackballs if necessary other than pushing them, and I don't believe I've seen any with ball knock-off mechanisms either.

Herder bots will be larger and although they will probably be designed for speed, their speed advantage won't be nearly as large as the one lap runners will have. Herders can provide lap support for alliances if necessary, but will have a larger impact assisting with the trackballs. The best herders will be able to put up point numbers on par with the better hurdlers when given a trackball, or they can shuttle them around to slower moving hurdler allies for maximum ball points. Herder bots will probably see the defensive role more than any other robot design, playing keep away with the opposing alliance's trackballs and removing balls to negate end bonuses.

I see lap runners working well in offense-oriented alliances, most likely with 2 hurdlers or a herder and hurdler that can handle the balls themselves. There could be an alliance with multiple (or all) lap bots that ignores the trackballs, but this alliance would have to try to win the game in hybrid mode, since they may have trouble scoring in teleop if the opposition slows down the tempo of the game.

Herders will be in the more defensive role, playing nuisance against the opposition while 2 hurdling partners rack up points. There may also be a "hand off" alliance that uses 2 herders to run balls to a single hurdler or an alliance with 1 hurdler, 1 herder, and 1 lap bot, but these will only happen at Regionals with mostly broken hurdlers or if the herder is extremely good at scoring with the trackball (in excess of 36 points).

Regardless of which one plays a bigger role I still see one of them being necessary to the best alliances of this year. With only two trackballs on the field someone has to run laps or defense, and a robot designed for that purpose will be better at it than a hurdler that does it on the side (there will not be a hurdler this year that can outrun lap runners like 148 or 1519, and since most hurdlers capture the ball they will be unable to use their manipulators on the opponent's balls which many herders will be able to do). The only way I see 3 hurdlers performing better is in an extreme hurdling hand off scheme passing balls over the overpass to each other, and from robot designs this year I don't think teams will be able to do that very effectively.

[danshaffer]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I'm thinking three hurdlers.

When one hurdles there will be one waiting to get the ball for their attempt and one with the other ball racing around to hurdle.

An effective three team relay will be unstoppable.

Maybe in Atlanta, but you don't see that kind of depth of field in week one regionals, and probably not in very many other regional events (think about it: 24 decent hurdlers in a field of ~50)

[Akash Rastogi]

I won't say specifically who, but did anyone notice that the bots who broke their end effectors during the match were a little too preoccupied with trying to get a hold of a ball and in those 15-20 seconds could have been running laps the whole time. I let this go during practice but they should keep priorities in focus and try to get as many points possible for the alliance instead of wasting valuable time trying to grasp the ball.

The same principle went for herding the balls. Granted, there were bots that were very fast and their main goal was to drive their way to victory, but there were other sluggish lapbots that I think could have been herding the whole time and gaining more points. A couple of times this was because their alliance partners need the ball for hurdling (or to try to hurdle) but other than that, there was a lot of wasted time (or time and laps that could have been used more effectively). Anyone have comments on this?

-Rastogi