Competition Professionalism

[henryBsick]

I think a lot of people are assuming a fair bit of information... I will try to correct and bring this up to speed.
I am a fan of cheering, a bigger fan of having a good time. Cheer your brains out, 222 '03 National Team Spirit; trust me I know what getting excited and motivated is.
Apart from that, the competition has been hindered by the dancing. You say "why not?" I say "to keep the integrity of the game play together." Time to cool down a robot between back to back matches is provided for, as are timeouts. Having a good time can go too far sometimes. Without crossing the 'office dull' line I still think dancing is far too unprofessional for the regionals. Cheer and go crazy from the stands don't bring it to the field.
As the thread has moved along, I have honed my initial statement and question. My view of the dancing that occurs has always been the stereotypical 'kid who doesn't do things' kind of view. Please don't jump on me for what I just said, I am well aware that there are kids who enjoy themselves in such a manner that have a wide range of of roles on a team. When the hard facts come down to it, there are some kids who don't have a function on a team and are just at the events to hang out. I have seen it myself, nothing will sway my opinion on this. I am not in any way giving a magnitude to it, but it exists.

[IndySam]

A regional is a celebration of the hard work and effort that has gone on during the build season and dancing is appropriate at celebrations.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I think a lot of people are assuming a fair bit of information... I will try to correct and bring this up to speed.
I am a fan of cheering, a bigger fan of having a good time. Cheer your brains out, 222 '03 National Team Spirit; trust me I know what getting excited and motivated is.
Apart from that, the competition has been hindered by the dancing. You say "why not?" I say "to keep the integrity of the game play together." Time to cool down a robot between back to back matches is provided for, as are timeouts. Having a good time can go too far sometimes. Without crossing the 'office dull' line I still think dancing is far too unprofessional for the regionals. Cheer and go crazy from the stands don't bring it to the field.
As the thread has moved along, I have honed my initial statement and question. My view of the dancing that occurs has always been the stereotypical 'kid who doesn't do things' kind of view. Please don't jump on me for what I just said, I am well aware that there are kids who enjoy themselves in such a manner that have a wide range of of roles on a team. When the hard facts come down to it, there are some kids who don't have a function on a team and are just at the events to hang out. I have seen it myself, nothing will sway my opinion on this. I am not in any way giving a magnitude to it, but it exists.

You said yourself that you would trade 5 inspired students for 100 uninspired ones right? I would submit that many more student are inspired by the energy and excitement at a competition (the dancing is definitely part of the overall atmosphere), than are turned off by it (poll results seem to agree with me).

Despite you saying nothing will sway your opinion I will trek on anyway. I am very curious as to what the role of a PR member of a team is at a competition? How about a finance team member? Animation? I know a few members of my team (different members than the last post) that I'm sure you definitely would have pegged as "just socializing" if you saw them at our regional last year. You wanna know why? Because they were. These were members of our PR team that spent a weekend handing out buttons and "hanging out".

While these girls had worked on our t-shirts and buttons for the competition they hadn't been at our build site for more than about 4 hours in the whole six weeks. So these girls just came along for the ride and are the uninspired socializers you talked about right? Wrong. Two of the three are on the team again, and this year they're more involved. They still haven't touched the robot, but they showed up at our initial brainstorm/strategy meets, made our PR a bigger deal than last year and had a lot more respect for the robot and the guys and girls working on it than they did the year before. So did we inspire them to become engineers? Nope, but I'm fairly certain we accomplished one of the major goals of FIRST.

If you truly want to change the culture towards one that respects science and engineering (Dean has mentioned this in multiple speeches), then you need to inspire both groups of people, those that will be scientists and engineers and those that won't.

[CarterM]

At the Wisconsin Regional last year, some of our sponsors were dancing......not the kids...........

[Qbranch]

Are you trying to say american businesses are austere, cold, and devoid of life?

If they want lively, creative engineers... they should look no further than a group of roboticists who can be dancing at one moment then fixing a robot or writing software the very next.

-q

[Koko Ed]

I am the most rhythemless black man on the face of the planet and I loathe dancing. I think there is a public ordinance in the New York State legislature banning me from doing it in public to keep other from suffering from the smae disease. That being said the dancing and fun part of FIRST is what makes FIRST the amazing display that it is.
Our team had each and every member write an essay about what FIRST is to each of us. If I may I would like to borrow a couple of excerpts from it. FIRST what I think a competition is:

It was like a big party wrapped around a remarkable sporting event that was like nothing ever seen before with its distinctive strategies and alliance structures with an Oscar ceremony latched onto the back end for good measure.

Nothing sells FIRST better than a FIRST competition. And it's not just the robots or the togetherness of the teams or even the competition itself. Alot of it is the atmosphere that flows freely in the arena and infects everyone in the arena in their own special way.
FIRST is different things to different people. It used to bug when when every kid wasn't going to grow up to be a Kim O'Toole or an Adrienne Emerson or a John V. Nuen. I figured we failed somehow and they just were wasting their time on the team. but now I realize that they were getting something out of it. Whether that be seeking to teach others about the virtues of science and technology or just having a good time they didn't walk away uninspired. Everyone's heart just beat a little different and they take from the competition something different.
Both the students and the mentors. Or as I stated at the end of my essay:

What I truly believe make FIRST so unique and so fabulous is that it give students the opportunity to try on the clothes of responsibility and expectation. To look into the possible future that perhaps awaits them while at the same time giving the adult mentors a chance to recapture the excitement youthful discovery and sense of exuberant joy that permeates throughout the lives of the young that help fuel the drive that led them to where they are this day to help the next generation reach their potential.

[catsylve]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Nothing sells FIRST better than a FIRST competition. And it's not just the robots or the togetherness of the teams or even the competition itself. Alot of it is the atmosphere that flows freely in the arena and infects everyone in the arena in their own special way.
FIRST is different things to different people. It used to bug when when every kid wasn't going to grow up to be a Kim O'Toole or an Adrienne Emerson or a John V. Nuen. I figured we failed somehow and they just were wasting their time on the team. but now I realize that they were getting something out of it. Whether that be seeking to teach others about the virtues of science and technology or just having a good time they didn't walk away uninspired. Everyone's heart just beat a little different and they take from the competition something different.
Both the students and the mentors. Or as I stated at the end of my essay:

What I truly believe make FIRST so unique and so fabulous is that it give students the opportunity to try on the clothes of responsibility and expectation. To look into the possible future that perhaps awaits them while at the same time giving the adult mentors a chance to recapture the excitement youthful discovery and sense of exuberant joy that permeates throughout the lives of the young that help fuel the drive that led them to where they are this day to help the next generation reach their potential.

Very well stated.

I would like to add that we are talking about some young people here who are not comfortable in the typical athletic event setting, but want to have many of the same experiences. I have had a number of students tell me that being on a FIRST team is literally the first team they have ever been on.

The regionals that I have seen are allowing these kids to celebrate in an appropriate way. I personally experience a great deal of satisfaction when I see a young person who has been afraid to show that type of emotion in public suddenly racing across the field with joy or relaxing and dancing.

This is a part of the way in which lives are changed by FIRST and I think sponsors know this.

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Oh.
Maybe we are not on the same page to begin with. What you are expressing in this quote that I've included in my post is the impact of science and technology on the students. The effect of the FIRST experience on them. If I have this wrong, correct me.

To me, the competitions are the culmination of the build experience of the team. Yes, there are people who drop by an outreach event and a competition and they are inspired by the robots/the competition. But the teams are made up of team members who have worked together to create the robot and prepare it for the competition. Therein lies a big part of the inspiration, the impact of the experience on the students and where they will take that experience in their careers.

I can honestly see a thread started to address your concerns about the FIRST effect on students. I see that as a different topic than the celebration and dancing at a FIRST Robotics competition.

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.



Ultimately:
I love to cheer for the matches. More professionalism can easily be attained while still have a ton of fun. I just see the on field mass group dancing as a side effect to a potential falling off of technically oriented students. Yes there are many facets to a team that are not technically oriented, it is a necessity. I am worried about the students who "fall through the cracks" if you will and are not involved in any way.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

And now we have a clear view into the importance of the speeches of Dr. Woodie Flowers, Dean Kamen, and the wise Dave Lavery at the 2008 Kick Off. Teams should welcome and encourage engineers to be active mentors and contributors to the team efforts. All teams. If teams are short on engineer support, then set that as a short term and long term goal, continuing to fuel the fires of inspiration.

[Andrew Schreiber]

FIRST isn't a professional atmosphere. I mean there should be limits, but dancing should be fine. Competitions should be social events, it allows you to meet new people from all over the state/country/world.

You know, dancing is fine, and companies should understand they are kids, theres nothing wrong with dancing and having fun and socializing. Professionalism is one thing, being to uptight to relax and have fun is another thing entirely.

Thats my $.02.

[synth3tk]

Ok, I can't stay out of this one. I'm feeling a bit on the lazy side of posting today, so judge it lightly.

FIRST is about professionalism, yes. But it calls for a somewhat different type of professionalism. I agree with N7UJJ actually pointed out something worth noting, that corporations should take a hint from FIRST events. Big merger went through successfully? Celebrate! Dance! Just signed on a big-name customer? Let's go out for some pizza and drinks! I also concur with everybody who said that this is a stress reliever.

Last year, we (964) didn't do so hot, infact our robot barely worked. But you know what, every one of us had fun. We danced the YMCA, talked with other teams, enjoyed watching matches in between our matches, I even did some dancing and playing with kids in our Bearcat mascot suit. After six grueling weeks of designs, failures, testing, redesigning, and building, I think we all deserve to dance if the machine even turns on!

<rant>
Now, tell me, how many of us could have honestly known what a CNC was? Vice grip? PWM cable? Heck, I couldn't identify what a 7/16 ratchet was, let alone figure out how to use it. We've either learned to drill-and-tap, build a site out of CSS, compile a working autonomous mode, cut a piece of PVC with the bandsaw, or animate a video in 3DS that stresses of the importance of safety. Let me tell you a little secret: I'm wasn't doing so hot in school. This is my senior year, and I had some hardships through the local school administration trying to get homeschool credits transferred. I was seriously thinking about dropping out, why would I want to start over in 9th grade when I was supposed to graduate that year? Anyway, before I left the school, I joined the team, not knowing really what I was getting myself into. Had I not joined FIRST I probably wouldn't have given college a second chance. Sure, my mom, people at church, managers at work, all told me that I should go, it just wasn't the same as seeing a bunch of people learning in such an awesome program. When I was younger, I didn't realize it, but my dad had taken me to the Buckeye Regional, I believe it was 2000. Now, you think I would've wanted to join this if I just saw a bunch of people talking, acting, walking like they had sticks up their butts? One of the things that I like when I was there WAS the dancing. And then, I learn that FIRST hands out millions in scholarships?!? It's a no-brainer. Now I'm preparing to enroll at community college as I finish up my final year through an online school. There are literally hundreds of success stories where students who may have not only decided against going to college, but dropped out of HS, joined up, got involved, and gone to higher education facilities.

If it's the right kind, dancing is, and always will, be appropriate, even in "professional" settings. It can't get in the way of "learning" because for the most part, the learning was done starting January 5th and lasted until mid-February. Like mentioned before, it is only a celebration and showcase of what we accomplished. I'm sorry if you feel FIRST isn't the stiff-collered 9-to-5 straight-forward type of setting you're looking for, but I do hope you accept that, while nothing is perfect, it does what it's supposed to do above-and-beyond what the founder's may have meant for it.

"What's so great about this program, that I should give you the use of our workshop, our engineer(s), of $5,000?" That would be my response if you came to me asking for thousands. Obviously Intel, GM, NASA, Ford, Delphi, and SOOO many more companies, corporations, and businesses sponsored the events and teams, and spending thousands of dollars and man-hours must mean that there's some kind of payoff somewhere, and they endorse this "fun-loving free-for-all".
</rant>


So with that being said, invite them. Invite them with pride and excitement. They want to see that these kids are having fun, enjoying the new robots they worked so hard to build, to learn about.

[Drwurm]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

Oh The NERDMANITY!

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

You are helping me focus my point as I go along. I understand that some kids down there dancing do gain great things from this awesome program. I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers.

I agree with you, however what can FIRST do about it? If they take the fun aspects out of it, many of the kids who gain things wouldnt stay in it. I know if I wasnt having fun with it, I wouldnt have been in it since I was 8. I feel that it is up to the teams themselves to make sure each student gets good experience. I dont think FIRST can do anything about it because there are just too many kids they would need to take care of, they just need to keep up a fun environment. It is much more realistic for a team to make sure kids learn something, because they only need to take care of around 20-30 kids, as opposed to FIRST trying to talk with 10,000+ kids. I think FIRST has done everything they can. They are getting major coorporations to provide professionals to teach students. Where else can you find that?? Everything is set up for the students to succeed. If they dont take advantage of this opportunity, it is their own fault.
Joey

[Laaba 80]

Ok, I'm going to explain my FIRST - High School Football comparison because I dont think people know where I am coming from. When it comes down to it, most FIRST teams are a school club, such as a football team. People in both areas come to watch the games, because it is fun times. There is dancing in both between the action, with FIRST everything we are talking about, and with football cheerleaders and mascots. Are all people at both events involved with the team(or roobot) playing? no. However those who are enjoy it so much more. When I was in middle school I played football. I would go to our high school games, and I couldnt wait to become a part of that, and I loved going to them. Once I got into High School though, I found out that the football team has practice every day and to pplay on varsity, you need to be in the weight room 5 days a week, year round. I decided not to join, because for the amount of commitment needed, I didnot like playing enough. Many FIRSTers feel this too because it is a huge commitment. Others just have absolutely no idea, which as I said earlier, I think is the teams job to get them interested.
Joey

[N7UJJ]

"Oh The NERDMANITY!" I love it!

I think comparing corporate professional behavior to FIRST competition behavior does highlight a shortcoming. Conferences and conventions need more dancing! FIRST has it right: celebrate with dance and music! Rejoice with the kids! Those who came just to watch (parents, schoolmates, CEOs) suddenly can (and do) participate WITH the kids. I love it! For 6 or 7 minutes we are all on the same team!

As for delaying the day, it seems the dance is more of a filler for when time is needed on the field or during the pauses during semifinal / final matches. Keeps the crowd busy instead of dead time.

Yup, if there was more dancing during the Democratic / Republican conventions...