Competition Professionalism

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I am worried about the students who "fall through the cracks" if you will and are not involved in any way.

I'm going to rewind a bit back to this quote.

This thread is a little slippery to me, it moves around touching on different points.

This seems to be consistent though worded differently in a few posts.
I've thought about the different wordings and posts and I've thought about inspiration. Inspiration doesn't have a limit. There isn't a timer that is set and in the time frame before it goes off, the person will be inspired or else. Often, inspiration occurs during team time, during build while accomplishing various jobs that have to be done. That's the inspiration that can be easily seen and observed. The students who are on the drive team are easily seen and observed. The students who are part of the presentation team and interview with the judges are easily seen and observed. The students hanging out in the stands, not so much. They are seen and observed as a group representing the team but they are not able to be discerned as to what their contributions are to the team.

And - the funny thing about inspiration - it may occur way after that timer has gone off. Maybe after Atlanta and into summer. Maybe into college. Maybe after college and into career. Inspiration is not finite. Mentors think about these things and talk about these things, discuss them - often. The students who fall between the cracks. How can we motivate them or do we? How can we help them or do we? Team building, team development, team work? What?

And then, something wonderful can happen all on its own...a student who comes on the trip to the regional or Atlanta and seemingly doesn't contribute anything - makes an enormous impact on a summer outreach program with young children who have difficult lives. Very difficult lives. Very few fellow team members are available to view/observe this impact - they are busy with their summer activities. But a mentor and a small handful of team mates are there to view it and to see inspiration blossom. For their team mate, for the young children, and for the adults that shared the moment.

I understand the 'hanging out' concept - but I rarely doubt that inspiration once planted will grow in its own time.

[Zyik]

We are the next generation. We are the ones who are going to decide exactly what it means to be professional.

If you want that to be the same, buttoned down 9-5 job 5 days a week, then thats your decision. However, as a member of this generation I want to give my .02 cents into that, and I'd like that to change.

Every generation changes what it means to work and to play. FIRST does more then just build robots, it inspires us to do more. And if I want my engineering job to involve some dancing, that is my decision.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

...I am afraid however that FIRST is or soon may be on a slippery down hill slope to massive recruitment efforts with no technical experience provided. FIRST will move away from the robot and competition aspect and become a hang out club for many high schoolers...I just see the on field mass group dancing as a side effect to a potential falling off of technically oriented students. Yes there are many facets to a team that are not technically oriented, it is a necessity. I am worried about the students who "fall through the cracks" if you will and are not involved in any way.

I understand what you're saying... but I think you're a little bit too worried. As I've watched my team grow, it's gone from a group of students who are only interested in building a robot, to a much larger group of students who have interests like CAD, business, spirit, fundraising, community outreach, and much more. Sure, we have times where there are kids in the room not building a robot. We have more students who sometimes come to robotics to hang out with friends. But we celebrate our larger, more diverse team. Even if these kids aren't building a robot, they are growing from their experiences on a FIRST team. They learn how to work together, and they learn from professionals in whatever field they help out with, regardless of whether it involves touching the robot or not. These are extremely valuable life skills. At the competitions and events, they get to witness the robots, and often become inspired that way. A freshman girl who was once afraid to get her hand dirty might be the captain of the pit crew before she graduates. The dancing and excitement at the competitions only helps to draw in more people to be a part of the miracle of FIRST.

[Adam McLeod]

You're definitely overestimating how fun doing the chicken dance a couple times is. I'm not worried that people are joining our team just because they heard they might get to dance. I imagine those people are going to dances.

[DeAnnaC]

When our visitors came to the arena on Friday, they said they could FEEL the energy in the place. Maybe they could just feel the bass in the speakers? I love the colored, spiked hair, the painted jeans with the team name and the colorful-ness of the whole thing. I love it that kids can be as creative as they want.

We had a team for 2 years at the STL Regional who were the Kinigits.. (not the Knights). They wore green tunics and one of the guys (with a chainmail shirt) and a female (in a princess outfit complete with cone hat) completed the scene. The whole team clapped coconuts together and they skipped when they moved from place to place. I smiled everytime I saw them.

Anyway - my favorite video clip from this whole weekend is watching the guys (mostly male) sitting on the floor waiting for alliance selections. I think we were 15 minutes ahead of schedule at that time and they start to play the Macarena. Our team captain said that they all just looked at each other wondering why they'd play that song while the captains were supposed to stay on the floor, and they all started doing the dance while sitting. When they all jump to side (right or left?) it is hilarious. I hope we can post it to youtube soon.

6 weeks of seriousness is tough. Most of the time the volunteers/refs and judges get into the dancing during breaks as well. If these people are having a good time and keep coming back as volunteers, it's got to be a positive thing.

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I am lividly afraid that there are kids out there who go to the events and have nothing, and had nothing, to do with the robot. It is only a social event. Where is the inspiration and recognition in that?

I do agree with there, but what can you do about kids who dont get involved. On our team, members can be a part of whatever group they want to be. It is all ready for them, there are more experienced students and mentors there to teach them, all they need to do is commit to doing it. The problem is that many don't. This is disappointing, however it is not all bad. Not all members on our team do things with the robot. We have some members wo work on PR, award submissions, and Special projects. We also have 1 student who is a rookie this year, and is fully commited and interested in the robot, however he lives 30+ minutes away, so he cant come as often as some. I'm sure however that there are just some kids who are just along for the ride, and like the competitions. My rookie year I was a programmer and I only went in about 2-3 days a week. The competitions were fun, however the next years will be even better. The last two years I have been going in alot, this year I have been there every day except for 2 or 3 because I had to go to band. It really is more fun when you contribute more because you see something succeding that YOU worked on, it feels good. I agree with you here, however I dont this this applys to the dancing very much. People still enjoy the matches, it is just like watching a sporting event, the dancing is just a fill in.
Joey

[Vikesrock]

I'm not really sure where to start here as I don't think I agree with a single word of this post.

I guess I'll start at the top and work my way down.

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I am a volunteer in the mentor sense. Team #125 and various other teams in the Boston area. I have also been involved since 7th grade lego league.
For this discussion, we can assume that I don't care at what time I get home.
I am lividly afraid that there are kids out there who go to the events and have nothing, and had nothing, to do with the robot. It is only a social event. Where is the inspiration and recognition in that?

Instead of retyping things I have already written I will refer you over to a recent post I made in another thread . I think this thread also provides some pretty good insight about how difficult it is to get people to come if they have no interest and what happens when people that think they have a vague interest come and experience FIRST.

Comparing a football game to FIRST is probably a little bit off, like you said FIRST isn't like anything else around.

In some ways comparing sports to FIRST is valid and in others it is not. In this case I think there is at least some validity in the comparison. Many high school sports programs are supported through advertisement by corporations at stadiums and arenas.

You are more or less proving my point.

A random post with a ridiculous suggestion from a poster with negative rep (yes I know they are just dots). Is this really what you want to associate your argument with? I would much rather have my grandma see me dance than have her see me play Halo. As far as I'm aware my dancing has not been rated "M for Mature".

The time for repairs is sanctioned in the game and rules itself. Extensions past that are not provided for in the rules. One 6 minute period is still 6 minutes even if the YMCA may be 7 minutes long.

First of all, until someone can tell me that they are absolutely sure that a timeout has been extended (with the team working on their robot during the "extension") I don't think this is an issue. Even if it were an issue there is an easy fix, make the robots be on the field and the teams off it right at the six minutes. Then the drive teams can get in on the dancing if they want! Yes this would potentially allow for more than 6 min. for strategizing during a timeout, but I don't think I have ever seen a team call a timeout to strategize.

Jane, I am just as excited as the next guy for robotic competitions. I really fear though that a lot of the students celebrating are doing so in the dark. I don't think that a majority of kids are actually gaining any insight to science and technology. As FIRST continues to grow, we cannot only be focused on the quantitative analysis, but the qualitative effect it has on each and every student.
5 students who gain an engineering education from FIRST is better than 100 who don't learn a thing.

The quantitative analysis says that FIRSTers are more likely to go to college and more likely to major in science or engineering than non-FIRSTers. The qualitative stories are all around you, Chief Delphi is full of them, I read them all the time and each one inspires and encourages me as well.

FIRST is about "gracious professionalism", behaving like your grandma is watching. That is not the same thing as being "professional" which means wearing a tie and usually not having much fun.

I think one of the most powerful things you can show a sponsor is kids excited to be working with robots. So how do you show them this? Kids usually don't look excited when they are actually working on the robots, many of them look downright concerned, especially at competitions. One of the best ways I can think of to show sponsors that kids are excited about robots is to show them that kids are excited at a robotics competition.

I had some teammates (I'm included here too) that danced along with a number of songs at our regional including the YMCA. I had personally seen these same students (again myself included) totally ignore the entire song at a school dance. So what was the difference between the dance and the FRC competition, we were excited.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Henry_222

I am lividly afraid that there are kids out there who go to the events and have nothing, and had nothing, to do with the robot. It is only a social event. Where is the inspiration and recognition in that.

How do you know that those kids dancing in the stands had nothing to do with the robot? Perhaps two of them assisted in the design and build of the manipulator, but are in the stands so as to not overcrowd the pit. Others may have the job of scouting the event, and are using the break to clear their minds. Maybe 3 of them have returned to the stands after their award-winning Chairmans presentation.

Granted there are always problems with getting students involved. On larger teams I suspect it is harder than on smaller ones, as some of the kids tend to get lost in the crowd. There are generally 3 groups of students

1. the core group that is always there, whenever the shop is open
2. another bunch of very dedicated kids, who also participate in other activities, and come to robotics whenever they are able
3. a group that you just aren't sure when you will see them

Of course we want to minimize the number of students in that last group. But perhaps the fun of the competitions, the cameraderie they have with other team members, the other more "social" aspects of the team, are what keep them coming. And somewhere along the line, it clicks for them, and suddenly they're in group 1. Or maybe they stay in group 3 all the while they're on the team, but it gives them a taste for what engineering and technology is all about, and they make a college decision based on that. Inspiration comes in many flavors.

And personally, I've seen far too many professional gatherings that could have been improved immensely by a line dance!

[synth3tk]

Dave's quote puts it best. If you think the people you're bringing to the competition would think lowly of the program because of the "kewl" part then you don't want them as sponsors.

And I don't think that many people are UBER-MAD that the dancing went over by one minute.

[Richard Wallace]

I'm a detail-oriented nerd, and not a good dancer. Not even a so-so dancer.

But I agree with Dave, Ed, Cathy, and many, many others who see the importance of celebration. Paying attention while executives and politicians speak to the crowd is a form of celebration, but dancing is much more immediate. Orders of magnitude more immediate.

At St. Louis yesterday, our field crew worked hard to get a few minutes ahead of schedule, so we could put all the team mascots out on the field for ten minutes of dancing right before the finals. The crowd seemed to enjoy it, and the teams still competing were probably glad to get the time without using one of their time-outs.

When we're doing things right, everyone at an FRC event should feel like dancing, even those who aren't good at it.

[SL8]

Originally Posted by Richard

When we're doing things right, everyone at an FRC event should feel like dancing, even those who aren't good at it.

I have to agree with you here. Even if you don't like the dancing you can think of it as a chance to let go after a very long period of stress. BTW stress usually isn't kind to our bodies if present too long.

[Danny McC]

I had a lot of stressful situations at the competition over the past three days. As we were waiting for one of our semifinal matches yesturday they took a time out for robot repairs. I usually don't dance but when the YMCA came on I just couldn't help but dance. After the dancing was done I felt very relieved.

[Beth Sweet]

Henry,

The way that I look at it is that everyone expresses their enthusiasm in different ways. As someone who spent 13 years of my life in a dance studio (both prior to and during my time in FIRST), I learned to express my emotions through physical movement. And that's how I look at dancing at competitions. These kids are excited, they're trying to get it out. For me, by nature, emotions are let out via physical movement.

There is, however, a line, and I'm sure that most of us know where that is. FIRST competitions are obviously not the place for "dirty dancing", and for the most part, I haven't seen them treated as one.

So I guess that my overall thoughts are, dance the night away. One thing that I have learned in business/accounting school, is that business-people enjoy having fun as much as the next person. They may not be the ones standing out there breaking it down with you, but they're the ones laughing along with you.

[David Brinza]

I've met with many sponsors, parents, judges and other adults (volunteers and spectators) who's primary contact time with FIRST is a regional event. They love they energy of the events - including the dancing. I took my Mom to the inaugural St. Louis Regional (2002?) and she was all grins watching students and mentors doing the chicken dance. It clearly impressed her that this program allows kids of all ages to "let their hair down" and enjoy themselves.

Certainly, the matches are intense and the crowd responds with cheers to team introductions, exciting finishes and scores being posted. I don't think that the level of energy (cheering and applauding) can be sustained between the finals matches (6+ minutes) without some other crowd participation activity. So, why NOT dancing? Even if you suck at dancing as much as I do, you can dance at a FIRST regional without fear of ridicule - especially if you believe others around you are laughing with you not at you.

One other thing, as far as I know, there are not many people being paid to participate in the regionals, so the "professionalism" rules of the office (except at Google) don't really apply at a FIRST competition. If you're looking for the kind of professionalism that exists in a design review, don't expect students, mentors and volunteers to be attracted to the program.

My wife adds that dancing is an expression of the soul and the soul is meant to be happy! Celebrate!!!!

[Laaba 80]

I dont think this thread is in the right place. What Henry is saying is he is worried that some students dont get involved and arent inspired. What does that have to do with dancing? I'll say it again it is up to each team and each student to make sure they get what they want to out of FIRST. You cant force a student to do anything. Maybe they are just joining because it is a social event. Is there anything wrong with that? They are still getting some experience that they wouldnt have had. This is probably the case for most freshmen, because they dont know what they are getting into. They will learn over the summer, and come back as Sophomores and are more able to contribute.
I am going to quote one of our mentors from last year who runs a college engineering lab "I've had kids that come into my program that dont even know how to work a screwdriver. You kids will learn so much and it will put you ahead of the game, even if you only learned to use a screwdriver through FIRST." May not be exact, but that was his point. Even if kids arent as involved as some they will still get a little experience. If they wouldnt have joined FIRST, they wouldnt have that experience. Like I said what the kids get out of it is up to them. If they want to learn alot they will, if they just want to get their feet wet they will.
Joey