Sad day, FIRST now FIRLP

[Daviddavid]

For those who haven't seen the thread,
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=66841&page=4

FIRST has been charging FTC teams higher registration fees the past few years out of an agreement with Lego/Pitsco.

Basically, FIRST is now FIRLP (at least to me)
For Increased Revenue of Lego Pitsco

I'm so mad right now. Bad decisions are one thing, corrupt decisions are another. So mad, so disappointed. Don't even know what else to say.

[Beth Sweet]

How is this thread different than the one referenced?

[Daviddavid]

I thought the one referenced was about the FIRST annual report and cash reserves, at least that seemed to be the focus of the thread. I thought FIRST and Lego having an agreement to increase school and team fees for the intermediate program is a totally different discussion. Isn't it?

I can't be the only one that thinks FIRST should be trying to get partners to lower fees and costs for teams, not making deals to sell out schools to help Lego or anyone else. I'd be pissed if they did the same to FLL to help Vex or anyone else, it's just not right.

[KathieK]

I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing, but if you are complaining about a $275 per team fee for FTC, think about it again. I doubt that comes anywhere near what it actually costs to provide the infrastructure to have the FTC program.

[Rick TYler]

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

(This isn't about censorship, by the way. Other non-anonymous posters have made some of the same points.)

[Brandon Martus]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

(This isn't about censorship, by the way. Other non-anonymous posters have made some of the same points.)

The accounts in question are being looked into.

[Daviddavid]

Wow - shouldn't surprise you, but I take great offense to your post. So you're telling me I'm a fake account just because I disagree with you and am questioning FIRST? Is that what this site is, just a priase FIRST site, anyone who questions it should be cutoff and censored? If so, fine, I'll stop reading these forums or posting, since it doesn't seem to be a free sharing of ideas anyway. Seems more like a post here if you're a FIRST groupie and won't ever question what they do or how things can be done better for teams.

So let me get this straight Rick - Does everyone need to use their last name on here? I see hundreds of users without full names, are they annonymous and should be looked into also? Or just the ones who question FIRST or diagree with you? How am I annonymous? I use my first name, I even state where I go to school and I'm looking at starting or metnoring an FTC team (or I was, now I won't). Seems like you have no problem with all the single name users who don't disagree with you or challenge FIRST.

What do you want - my full name, my social security number, my phone number?

Let me save you the time of looking into my account - I'm sitting here at the Orchard Valley Cafe in Campbell, CA, where I normally am when back home. If you want to know I'm here, call the clerk and ask who's next to the couch on their computer. Why am I at home, because I'm going back and forth from school to home because my mother is very ill and in the hospital, so I wish my reality was fake. You hit a nerve, and I would like to call you a name right now, but I won't. I'm sorry you don't like my views and you think FIRST can do no wrong. But claiming anyone who disagrees with you or questions FIRST should be looked into and moderated? Are you serious? Is that what FIRST has taught you? Sorry, but this is a joke. I can't believe that anyone who questions FIRST is slammed on these forums.

[Racer26]

Its not that he's directly accusing you of anything, but there have been a number of users with no team affiliation, and a very low post count in the last few days all accusing FIRST of this LEGO/Pitsco conspiracy. I make no comment as to its truth or falseness. Larger post counts, a reputation behind them, and team affiliations are all things that increase believability of what someone is saying.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Its not that he's directly accusing you of anything, but there have been a number of users with no team affiliation, and a very low post count in the last few days all accusing FIRST of this LEGO/Pitsco conspiracy. I make no comment as to its truth or falseness. Larger post counts, a reputation behind them, and team affiliations are all things that increase believability of what someone is saying.

Just to play Devil's Advocate....

They could now finally be posting stuff because... A)They have had enough and finally decided to say something in public. B)They are newer to FIRST or the "community" behind it.
Also...one can feign most of the above. Larger post count can't be driven up through the chit chat area (although thats easily trackable for all), reputation can be boosted easily by doing a "Reputation Ring" in which a group of 10+ people just constantly rep each other, you can also fake your team affiliation and make up a name.

[Allison K]

I think many of the newer accounts are because they were recently referred to the CD community from the FTC blog. I see many of the same names in comments over there.

Also, if these newer members are coming from FTC that may explain why they have vested interested in FIRST's dealings with LEGO/PITSCO/IFI/Other educational robotics platforms. We all tend to get uppity when FIRST changes things on us.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Daviddavid

Wow - shouldn't surprise you, but I take great offense to your post. So you're telling me I'm a fake account just because I disagree with you and am questioning FIRST? Is that what this site is, just a priase FIRST site, anyone who questions it should be cutoff and censored? If so, fine, I'll stop reading these forums or posting, since it doesn't seem to be a free sharing of ideas anyway. Seems more like a post here if you're a FIRST groupie and won't ever question what they do or how things can be done better for teams.

So let me get this straight Rick - Does everyone need to use their last name on here? I see hundreds of users without full names, are they annonymous and should be looked into also? Or just the ones who question FIRST or diagree with you? How am I annonymous? I use my first name, I even state where I go to school and I'm looking at starting or metnoring an FTC team (or I was, now I won't). Seems like you have no problem with all the single name users who don't disagree with you or challenge FIRST.

What do you want - my full name, my social security number, my phone number?

Let me save you the time of looking into my account - I'm sitting here at the Orchard Valley Cafe in Campbell, CA, where I normally am when back home. If you want to know I'm here, call the clerk and ask who's next to the couch on their computer. Why am I at home, because I'm going back and forth from school to home because my mother is very ill and in the hospital, so I wish my reality was fake. You hit a nerve, and I would like to call you a name right now, but I won't. I'm sorry you don't like my views and you think FIRST can do no wrong. But claiming anyone who disagrees with you or questions FIRST should be looked into and moderated? Are you serious? Is that what FIRST has taught you? Sorry, but this is a joke. I can't believe that anyone who questions FIRST is slammed on these forums.

Oh dear lord, there is a rash of people joining, making provacative posts, then leaving; stop putting words into other's mouths. Nobody asked for any information, they're doing normal moderation duties since we've never had a wave like this before. Don't take it personally.

Chill, relax, worry about your mom, a bloody robotics competition isn't as important as her.

FYI, I've challeneged, questioned, and called out FIRST on these forums, in public, and on podcast. Saying anyone is silenced who calls them out is as bad as saying everyone here is just a bunch of whiners; it's not true, it's a blanket statement, and is usually written out of passion of the moment.

Again, CHILL.

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

FYI, I've challeneged, questioned, and called out FIRST on these forums, in public, and on podcast. Saying anyone is silenced who calls them out is as bad as saying everyone here is just a bunch of whiners; it's not true, it's a blanket statement, and is usually written out of passion of the moment.

Again, CHILL.

Not to condone this kind of behaviour but to get the record straight, I have spoken out against FIRST on many occasions as I am someone who is a supporter of Robotics Education rather then a FIRST fan.

In some posts I have been very respectful and courteous and have even given support of my opinions and viewpoints. I recieved both good and bad repuatations from very 'elite' members of these forums who you are saying do not judge you for "anti-FIRST" messages but more bad then good. At the same time, I have challenged FIRST in a rude and [almost] insulting manner and recieved both repuatations from 'elite' members but more good then bad.

People should stop saying "we judge by the quailty of the post and not the pro-anti-FIRST messages" because its NOT TRUE!


Also, I know MANY people who have been members on these forums for over 5 years and have yet to post! It doesn't mean anything. Let Brandon check IPs if he wishes but don't accuse without proof (the same thing you are telling David to do.)


David, rather then bash FIRST why not hop? You can't change a company/corporation/organization by yourself. You have to go through a time consuming process usually involving lawyers.... Have you tried VEX [IFI]? Botball? BEST? among other programs? Check out the NASA Robotics Alliance Project website - http://robotics.nasa.gov/edu/matrix.php


EDIT:

Dave, when the messenger originally asks for one sort of payment but continues to raise it every other trip does it make the message "more" important because more was spent transporting? People need to realize that FIRST has its flaws! EVERYONE DOES! If you don't agree with the messenger find a new one! We have FedEx and UPS if we don't like the default USPS. If 3-days gets the job done, why overnight?

[TechieSam]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

Rick, I checked the "members" listing of ChiefDelphi. There are currently 300 pages of pages of members with 30 or less posts, most of them with less than 10 posts and who are annonymous according to you. I counted 50 members on a page, that means you have about 15,000 members who should be moderated, removed, questioned or I guess just not listened to. There are thousands of members without last names, without team affiliations and so on - either they are all annonymous or they aren't, but don't be hypocritical. If you want a new rule saying everyone must use their full name, address, phone number and have a background check, fine - but don't just call out people who are voicing critical opinions you don't agree with or don't want to believe. Ever occur to you that some of the accounts on here ignoring information and praising FIRST like it's an infalible organization are "fake" and just plants trying to spin positive views of decisions people would object to?

Since I am one of those newer members who just started posting again recently, and since I agree with what David has said and think FIRST is doing some questionable things, I would like to report myself to the moderators. I guess I should be moderated or silenced also since I'm don't think FIRST is perfect and is capable of doing things we wouldn't be proud of. By the way, I didn't give David any rep points - I don't care what his rep is, and I don't care what yours is either.

But Dave Lavery said we should focus on the topic of the thread, not who posted it. And since he has lots of posts and a great reputation, it sounds like I have permission to value his comments. So I'll get on topic and share this:

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chizm. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

But based on what I've been told, I don't think David's FIRST vs FIRLP statement is out of line.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chism. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

[TechieSam]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Here's what I would consider selling out - if Vex, the FTC partners and others requested that the team fees be $200 or lower for Vex to make it more affordable for more teams to join FTC and they were told the price for Vex must be higher at the request of Lego, then that is selling out. That is price fixing and that is what I consider selling out. If you think it's ok to raise the prices on FTC or FRC teams just to make Lego look more affordable to potential FTC schools, then I would disagree with you. That should be up to the schools to decide, not Lego or Vex.