Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

[Mr. Freeman]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Wow. Just wow.
You obviously have some sort of issue with teams that have had success because you just about stomped on each and every single one of them.And insulting the multiple senior FIRST mentors (many who are Woodie Flowers nominees) and blowing off their advice is a really nice touch.
Congratulations.
I'm sure you are very proud.

He has some valid points, and I understand where he's coming from. I don't necessarily agree, but sarcastic, insulting comments like this aren't helping anything.

As for FIRST being about the students, I have to agree, with conditions. Yes, mentors are a critical part of the process, but why on earth would we need a program like FIRST to inspire engineers already working in the industry? The entire purpose is to inspire students to pursue science/engineering-based fields of study, mentors help make that happen.

Anyway, it seems as though his opinions center around attempting to get as many people to nationals as possible. I'm not actually sure this is possible without teams throwing matches to lower their rank if they're already qualified.

As I understand it now, if a team that is already qualified for nationals wins at two separate regionals, then a space opens up at nationals for any team to register. These registrations are based on who has been waiting the longest amount of time to attend nationals.
This might actually be the best system. It attempts to get everyone to nationals as soon as possible.

The problem with powerhouse teams not picking one another is that in the end, only one alliance goes on to nationals. So some of those deserving teams still loose and still don't move on. Changing every team's selection strategy isn't going to help much. If the current system isn't acceptable then the entire thing is going to need reworking, not just the powerhouse teams' strategy.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

As far as all the disclaimers, I don't care that you think I'm talking for my team, but if I was then I would start every thing with "Team 1718 feels", and I didn't did I.

Despite the fact that you don't care about what I have to say (since I'm a mentor), I'm going to offer you some advice. I'm probably wasting my time, but I'm in a giving mood today.

You say that you're trying to change the views of teams. It's a noble goal. Unfortunately, all you have done is make yourself look like a jerk. By coming on a forum, with Team 1718 in your username, you have now made Team 1718 look like a bunch of jerks. You complain about your team being overlooked in the past. Have you ever considered that it might be because of actions like these? If this is the attitude you bring forward at a competition, our team would most definitely ignore you. I mean, would you pick a team who had a member come up to you and say "I don't care about your opinion, you're just a <Insert noun here>". Each individual is a representation of a team, and a team is only as strong as it's weakest link. The attitude you have shown in your posts in this thread are what I would classify as weak.

Traits such as tact, courtesy and politeness go a long way in this world. A first impression isn't something you can make twice. Taking heed of this will serve you well in the future.

[fuzzy1718]

My reason for the mentor comment was to the ones that keep repeating the same thing. I ment nothing by it, other than to deter them from posting again. I get what they say, but mostly what they say takes what I said out of context. If you have something new, say it. Otherwise there is no point in repeating what has already been said.

I just don't like seeing so many mentor posts and so few student ones. I understand you want to help, and it is good that you are. I simply want to see more opinions on the matter, from a larger demographic.

I try to spell things right but I am a high school student who is terrible at grammar and spelling. I honestly don't know how I pass english class every year. I try and spell stuff correct, I try to use good grammar, but I have a limit. My computer is too slow to open another window, this also causes "typoes". I'm sorry for that.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

My reason for the mentor comment was to the ones that keep repeating the same thing. I ment nothing by it, other than to deter them from posting again. I get what they say, but mostly what they say takes what I said out of context. If you have something new, say it. Otherwise there is no point in repeating what has already been said.

I just don't like seeing so many mentor posts and so few student ones. I understand you want to help, and it is good that you are. I simply want to see more opinions on the matter, from a larger demographic.

I try to spell things right but I am a high school student who is terrible at grammar and spelling. I honestly don't know how I pass english class every year. I try and spell stuff correct, I try to use good grammar, but I have a limit. My computer is too slow to open another window, this also causes "typoes". I'm sorry for that.

If you're using Firefox, it's actually really easy to spell check anything you type. It'll underline it in red, like MS word, and all you have to do is right click and it'll give you options to change it to.

[fuzzy1718]

Sorry internet explorer. Tried firefox, but it slowed the internet down way to much. Dial-up, what can you exspect.

[AdamHeard]

A lot of these mentors posting have been students on teams once;Karthik, Cory, Brandon Hollyey,Kyle, etc... So, they shouldn't be discounted for being mentors (well, no one should be discounted for being a mentor)

Also many have been involved in FIRST for a very long time ;Koko Ed, Dave Lavery, Cory, Karthik, etc... So They're opinion really should be respected.

Even if you are 100% certain your views are right, when so many well respected people in FIRST are disagreeing with you, it may be a good idea to take a time out and see why.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

The only thing I hope is that nobody gives you negative reputation or anything..because others should also remember that they are your opinions to own.

Wow...so much for that.

And yes, I know they're just dots... hehe

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

My reason for the mentor comment was to the ones that keep repeating the same thing. I ment nothing by it, other than to deter them from posting again. I get what they say, but mostly what they say takes what I said out of context. If you have something new, say it. Otherwise there is no point in repeating what has already been said.

I'm not sure why you have so much of a bias against the mentors, or their thoughts and opinions.

Some of the mentors here once were students on FIRST teams, and many more have been involved with FIRST for years and years.

Others first got involved when you may have still been in elementary school (or earlier).

Many spend their vacation days from work with a bunch of high school kids and robots.

Some travel thousands of miles every year at their own expense, just so they can volunteer at FIRST events, with the only compensation being a few free meals and a tee shirt.

Some get their employers to donate money or resources to local teams.

Others drive around their state, enticing new schools to start their own teams, despite the price of gas.


But all of them are dedicated - without these mentors there would be no FIRST. Don't be so quick to shrug off their judgment.

[JaneYoung]

If I may, I think Josh would like more students to add their thoughts to the topic. It was how he phrased it that caused the firestorm.
There have been discussions that address the have and have-not aspects of FRC teams. There have been discussions regarding different aspects of this thread and probably a great way to search would be to use the word, fair. In those threads there has been a lot of input from students, mentors, parents, alumni. It's a nice mix to have.

Also, Josh, my typos are horrible. I use the edit button multiple times in almost every post. It's handy. Sometimes I write out my thoughts in Word first and then copy/paste into the thread. That has helped as well.

[Joe G.]

On attending multiple regionals:

-Going to Atlanta is not necessary for inspiration.
-Winning a regional is not necessary for inspiration.
-Taking part in a FIRST team is a path to inspiration.

Watch my team on TBA. You will see a signifigantly less than great robot. Am I still inspired? Heck Yes!

If a team needs to do extremely well to feel inspired, then there is something wrong.



On mentors:

They are our mentors because they know more than us in their areas of expertise. They have experience. They are not the focus of FIRST, but without them, it wouldn't happen. We all have different opinions on how they should perform their role, or what that role should be. But to shun their opinions because they are probably more informed than ours is quite ridiculous. If you had never encountered a teacher in your life, where would you be now?


EDIT, to post below:

Point taken. The second half of my post wasn't specifically aimed at Josh, or any other one person. The topic has just been on my mind lately, for reasons other than this thread, and it kind of slipped out here. I apologize for any offense caused to anyone.

Now, back to the topic, instead of a "Bash fuzzy1718-fest"

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by rocketperson44

On mentors:

They are our mentors because they know more than us in their areas of expertise. They have experience. They are not the focus of FIRST, but without them, it wouldn't happen. We all have different opinions on how they should perform their role, or what that role should be. But to shun their opinions because they are probably more informed than ours is quite ridiculous. If you had never encountered a teacher in your life, where would you be now?

Sigh, in the real world we have sexism, anti semitism, and racism, in FIRST we have anti Engineeringdegreeism

Please read Jane's post above. I think its what Josh actually meant. Plus, I think that's a topic for a different thread.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by rocketperson44

But to shun someone's opinions because they are different than ours is quite ridiculous. If you had never encountered a person in your life, where would you be now?

Corrected.

By the way, Josh, try out IE7Pro it will add the spell checking to ie7. Although I might add that everyone should have a Preview Post button right next to Submit Reply. I would suggest using that and proof reading what you have to say. Just take a step back and say, "Am I really saying what I want to say and am I saying it in a professional manner?"

That being said, Dave, some of us just don't have your grasp on the English language. And the school systems do not teach most of it anymore (least not where I am)

[blaxbb]

I really hate to try to break up this kind and sincere debate, but...

This question was asked in the survey from FIRST about future regional setups, so FIRST is definitely thinking about changing things up.

fuzzy1718 brings up some valid points and the people arguing against him also have some valid points.

In my opinion FIRST needs to maintain the open community that it has now, but in order to draw in more schools should make the competitions more local. (similar to highschool sports, state champs )

What if FIRST created both regional competitions and open competitions.

Regional competitions would be locked as per the name "Regional." This would be the event you would be placed in when you register. The winning alliance (along with chairmans, EI, etc.) would qualify for Championships. This event will crown a specific regional title for the country/ region / state / city / whatever the division may be.

Open Events would be more like regionals today. Open Registration keeps the community of FIRST, and possibly creating more competitive events that many crave before championships.

Within 10 years FIRST won't be able to maintain the structure of the regional events. With 3 - 4 thousand teams, many teams will be forced away from local events which would put off someone looking to start a team.

I'm curious what the others think about this. ( new teams, old teams, red teams, blue teams, long standing mentors, new students)

[Cory]

Originally Posted by blaxbb

I really hate to try to break up this kind and sincere debate, but...

This question was asked in the survey from FIRST about future regional setups, so FIRST is definitely thinking about changing things up.

fuzzy1718 brings up some valid points and the people arguing against him also have some valid points.

In my opinion FIRST needs to maintain the open community that it has now, but in order to draw in more schools should make the competitions more local. (similar to highschool sports, state champs )

What if FIRST created both regional competitions and open competitions.

Regional competitions would be locked as per the name "Regional." This would be the event you would be placed in when you register. The winning alliance (along with chairmans, EI, etc.) would qualify for Championships. This event will crown a specific regional title for the country/ region / state / city / whatever the division may be.

Open Events would be more like regionals today. Open Registration keeps the community of FIRST, and possibly creating more competitive events that many crave before championships.

Within 10 years FIRST won't be able to maintain the structure of the regional events. With 3 - 4 thousand teams, many teams will be forced away from local events which would put off someone looking to start a team.

I'm curious what the others think about this. ( new teams, old teams, red teams, blue teams, long standing mentors, new students)

I don't see FIRST ever getting to the 3-4,000 team level. The economy won't support that many teams. It's already a major struggle for most teams to gather funding.

I think FIRST should stop focusing on expanding FRC, and focus on making FRC it's crown jewel. FTC should be the avenue for expansion. It's simply not realistic for FIRST to expect every school to have a FRC team. Nor could their current infrastructure handle 4,000 teams. They would need 4 times the current amount of events (or 2 fields per event and 2x the events). Either way, you need 4x the volunteers, plus more paid FIRST staff.

At some point they will probably have to either introduce super regionals, or start giving only the winning alliance captain, and the first pick automatic bids to champs (similar to FTC, currently). Or get rid of FLL and FTC at the Championship, and have a FRC only event.

FIRST also has to decide if they want the Championship to be a showcase of their most competitive teams, or a social gathering. To a large extent, this will determine what their possible choices are.

To be honest, I think the odds are better that FIRST will be a shell of it's former self in 10 years, than having 4,000 teams.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Some travel thousands of miles every year at their own expense, just so they can volunteer at FIRST events, with the only compensation being a few free meals and a tee shirt.

I traveled hundreds of miles last weekend to volunteer at an event that this young man's team was participating in. Filling a need that had no volunteer to fill it. I was basically the only person doing the queing (except for this nice young lady whom I never got her name who helped me for a while til she was reassigned).
My thoughts on FIRST being just about the students. The intent may be to serve the students but much like a food kitchen while serving the needy may be the goal to treat the volunteers like they do not matter is a one way ticket to guarantee you won't be getting many more volunteers in the future. FIRST may not be about the mentors but I'll bet you a box of Krispy Kremes it would die a quick brutal death without them. They deserve your respect and admiration for taking time to do something when there are other things clamoring for their time (like families and friends).
You'd do best to remember that.