I'm confused! (VEX VS. FTC)

[Leav]

Hi Guys!

all the breaking up, splitting up and setting up of new competitions has got me confused....

Could someone break down for me:

What is the FTC and what is VEX? (which platform will each program be using, how the competition is set up etc....)

I'm really sorry I realize it's not very easy but I really want to get my head wrapped around the changes happening in that area (I have been in over my head with FRC for the last 6 months )

Thanks alot!

-Leav

[Greg Needel]

hey leav,


FTC: is the official FIRST competition. it will be using a new custom kit based on the lego NXT brain, with metal and motors from Lynxmotion. Teams who competed this past year will be able to get discounted kits for about $450. And then each team will pay a ~$275 registration for each event they attend. These events will be qualifiers for the FIRST championship in atlanta.


VEX: is a competition run by Innovation FIRST which will use the vex robotics design system. All past vex components are legal and teams can buy any of the new accessories which are coming up. Each event costs $75 per team and $25 for each additional team from the same high school. There will be ~40 regional events, 4 major events with 100+ teams all leading up to the world championship next spring. Also there are new initiatives under vex including an online only challenge which will encompass middle school through college.

[emmell]

Shalom Leav! Happy 60th to Israel!

FTC = FIRST Tech Challenge - The official intermediate program from FIRST to handle the bridge between FLL (FIRST Lego League) and FRC (FIRST Robotics Competition).

FVC = FIRST Vex Challenge - The original name of the pilot program that FIRST ran as the intermediate program that was changed in 2007.

VEX = The Vex robotics system made by IFI (Innovation First, Inc.) and originally marketed by Radio Shack. IFI bought the rights back from Radio Shack when they decided to dump the line.

VEX in this context can also mean the VEX World Championship run by IFI that was recently held in Northridge, California, USA.

Now, the confusion can come due to the robotic platform that is being used. For the last 3-4 years, all programs used the Vex robotics system. In 2008-09, the FTC will be using a new platform (called the FTC robotics kit for now) that is made by Pitsco, HiTechnic and other vendors. It will be a complete kit of parts for teams that compete in the 2008 (and beyond) FTC competitions. The game for FTC for 2008-09 has not been designed yet.

The Vex robotics system is still viable and available and IFI is sponsoring their own robotics competition. This past year (2007-08), the Vex World Championship game was called Bridge Battle. In future years, there will be different games (probably) but still using the Vex robotics system by IFI.

I hope this helps.

Mannie Lowe

[Leav]

Shalom Mannie! and thanks! we are celebrating our independence this thursday!

Thanks Greg and Mannie your comments were very helpful!

does anyone have experience with both competitions and could say whether one is better than the other in some aspect?

would you choose one over the other as a low-cost project for an FRC team in the months leading up to the kickoff?

Thanks again!

-Leav

[Coach Norm]

Hello Leav from Austin, Texas

I am the adviser/teacher for a Rookie Team at our High School. I feel like I am in the same boat as you. We bought some VEX kits this year. We used them for prototyping and education team.

I think I am going to go with the FTC for the future for a few reasons. We are mentoring three FLL teams in our district and hope to expand that to 8 teams eventually (one at each of our feeder elementary and middle schools). The FTC platform will be an extension of the platform they use in FLL. This will require more of an investment up front from what I understand.

As of right now, no VEX tournaments or events are located in a relatively short travel distance.

I will keep VEX in mind for future. The headquarters for the company is in Texas. I will want to offer more opportunities for contest in the future for additional students to participate in.


Norman

[David55]

Originally Posted by Leav

Shalom Mannie! and thanks! we are celebrating our independence this thursday!
Thanks Greg and Mannie your comments were very helpful!
does anyone have experience with both competitions and could say whether one is better than the other in some aspect?
would you choose one over the other as a low-cost project for an FRC team in the months leading up to the kickoff?
Thanks again!

-Leav

First of all, I don't think the new FTC kits are available yet and I am not sure what the ETA is.

A few tips for VEX stuff from past experience:
The VEX joysticks are not allowed in the country and were confiscated (this might be negotiable: it was probably a frequency issue but that can easily be changed with different crystals). There are usually no problems for bringing in individual kits for home use but you may want to get that cleared for official school business. If you buy the kits from Robogroup they will replace the joystick with a legal Sanwa joystick (which is actually more advanced IMO).

Second...import whatever you can by yourself if the school permits that. Robogroup (the official importer) will have no problem ripping you off and charging 2-3X the original price which is already pretty high.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by David55

A few tips for VEX stuff from past experience:
The VEX joysticks are not allowed in the country and were confiscated (this might be negotiable: it was probably a frequency issue but that can easily be changed with different crystals). There are usually no problems for bringing in individual kits for home use but you may want to get that cleared for official school business. If you buy the kits from Robogroup they will replace the joystick with a legal Sanwa joystick (which is actually more advanced IMO).

While this may be true of the current vex system, it is the crystals which are the illegal things in Israel as the frequencies are restricted there. IFI announced new wi-fi controls for vex a few months ago which would be legal in israel. http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/VEX-Mini-and-802.11.pdf

I can tell you now that for my new team and western TN, I will be supporting vex and not FTC. As far as I am concerned, having seen that new FTC kit in atlanta it is going to be easier for my kids to design using vex then that new platform. Also the costs and my previous investment in vex hardware seal the deal.

[David55]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

While this may be true of the current vex system, it is the crystals which are the illegal things in Israel as the frequencies are restricted there. IFI announced new wi-fi controls for vex a few months ago which would be legal in israel. http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/VEX-Mini-and-802.11.pdf

That is what I tried to say. Our team had all the VEX joysticks confiscated which I found very weird since the crystals can be replaced with legal frequencies (and there are a lot of legal hobby-RC frequencies). It might have just been a misunderstanding.
Also...the new wifi controls may not be an option depending on when the team wants to get started since it may be a while before the new controls are available.

[Rich Kressly]

Just to clarify on the fees:

FTC:
- $450 kit ($900 without discount or rookie grant)
- $275 Team Fee to FIRST (this is last year's number). This gets paid once to HQ
- ???? Event Fee for every event. This vaires by event, but most are in the $250 range.

Total to budget (without travel, game pieces, or extra parts) for one team going to one FTC event for 2008-09: $975 with the discounted kit, $1425 with full priced kit.


Vex:
$450 minimum for equipment (one starter kit, battery, programming kit)
$75 Vex team fee
??? event fee - decided locally I believe and no word on this range yet.

Total to budget (without travel, game pieces, or extra parts) for one team. Right now, I'd say a total of $725 is more than enough and could be as low as $600 or so, depending on that event fee.

Now, if you already have Vex equipment and have multiple teams, then Vex becomes very economical

[Lowfategg]

Its going to be hard for FTC teams to decide if they will do FTC next year or switch over to IFI's VEX competition.

Basically: FTC = more expensive and a new kit, VEX = less expensive and the VEX kit.

Also to really do vex right you need to spend $900+ on parts. Just for an example I would estimate that our robot was around $2000 this year (thats just the parts on the robot).

Now it might be the case that new FTC kit will include a lot of parts so less needs to be bought which would make the prices a little more even.

[Andrew Bates]

It is my understanding that IFI/VEX will try and keep local/regional event fees low. I have no idea if FIRST plans to do anything to standardize or keep event fees low.

[rfolea]

Originally Posted by Lowfategg

Its going to be hard for FTC teams to decide if they will do FTC next year or switch over to VEX.

"Switch ove to VEX?" They are already doing the vex platform - the question is should they make switch to the new FTC platform ...

[Lowfategg]

Originally Posted by rfolea

"Switch ove to VEX?" They are already doing the vex platform - the question is should they make switch to the new FTC platform ...

I meant switch over to the IFI's VEX competition and leave FTC. I did not mean the VEX platform.

[waialua359]

From what I was told, there was too much of a demand to accomodate many teams that wanted to come to CMP in Atlanta. Thus, VEX sponsored by Innovation FIRST eventually "broke away" and hosted their own tournament this past weekend in California for the World Championship. **correct me if I'm wrong. Just what I heard.**
However, there is another "World" Festival being hosted in Hawaii from December 4-6, 2008 which will feature many international teams also.
My assumption is that it gives flexibility for teams that could not make this past weekends one and that it allows more teams to compete at an international level.
As an FRC team that plans on doing FRC for years to come, if we considered to do VEX, we would probably choose the fall schedule so that the build seasons dont overlap. Plus, its in Hawaii!

[bellpride]

Originally Posted by Lowfategg

Also to really do vex right you need to spend $900+ on parts. Just for an example I would estimate that our robot was around $2000 this year (thats just the parts on the robot).

We must keep in mind that Overdrive (Lowfategg's team) had two functioning robots for FTC at the same time. Also keep in mind that parts can be reused, and as to what Overdrive bought with $2000 worth of parts plus past kits, I can only wonder.

Can FTC kits be reused from year to year, or will it be like FRC, where a new kit needs to be bought each year?