Responsibilities of a Mentor

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by EricH

Take the mentor involvement out of the pits for a moment. They're at your facility, ready to answer questions, help you, hold a part. Now, you get to the event and they can't enter the pit. You suddenly have something go wrong that you don't know how to fix. You have to tell the mentor who is in the stands or at work what the issue is, with no way to send pictures (the engineer's language) and only your words. The fix might not work, or might not even be possible. And, according to Murphy, something WILL go wrong, and most likely the precise event that would cause this situation.

Ideally, the students would have been so heavily involved with building the robot, they know how to fix it better than the mentors. During the years I was on 1418, by competition time, there was nothing the mentors knew about our robots that at least one team member didn't know better. Build season is another story, that's when general engineering experience comes in handy, but at competitions it's all about knowing your machine.

Originally Posted by EricH

FIRST is about changing the culture, not conforming to it. But each team is free to choose how they do so.

I don't see how heavier involvement from mentors helps FIRST change the culture any more. If anything, I think it does the opposite. Kids learn in school how to sit and watch and be detached from science while they follow advice (orders) from their elders. We already know that professional engineers can build robots. What's really culture changing is when kids can do it for themselves. (and they can, when the mentors step back)

EricH also alluded to other hands-off for adults competitions, and I thought of Odyssey of the Mind. The best part of OM is seeing the crazy and inventive stuff students come up with when no one tells them the 'right' thing to do. My mom was a judge for several years and she said it was pretty easy to tell which projects the parents had done and that the kids' projects were generally better.

The feeling of ownership I got from my FIRST and OM teams has no comparison and surely has made me a much better person than yielding control to the mentors would have.
God, I miss touch typing. I apologize in advance for any grammatical oddities, I'm not used to thinking so much faster than I can get words down.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Ideally, the students would have been so heavily involved with building the robot, they know how to fix it better than the mentors.

"Ideal" does not mean the same thing in all situations. Inspiration works just as well for some teams whose students are stretched past their competence levels as it does for other teams whose mentors did nothing the students weren't capable of doing on their own.

I don't see how heavier involvement from mentors helps FIRST change the culture any more. If anything, I think it does the opposite. Kids learn in school how to sit and watch and be detached from science while they follow advice (orders) from their elders. We already know that professional engineers can build robots. What's really culture changing is when kids can do it for themselves. (and they can, when the mentors step back)

I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between inspiration and learning. In order to "change the culture" we don't necessarily need to show people how to do something. We just need to show what is possible with the right training and study. That training and study is not all going to happen within the time constraints of an FRC season, but the relatively brief bits of inspiration can easily influence the rest of a student's educational career.

If you want to focus on a "kids can do it for themselves" environment, I think you're going to miss out on a big part of the experience of having engineering mentors as part of the team. High school students should not be expected to have the same skill sets as professional engineers who have had years more of study, learning, and practice in the relevant fields. The same goes for machining, programming, team-building, fundraising, networking, recruiting, strategic planning, etc.

Mentors are the fundamental resource around which FIRST is built. To marginalize them would be to waste that resource.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between inspiration and learning. In order to "change the culture" we don't necessarily need to show people how to do something. We just need to show what is possible with the right training and study. That training and study is not all going to happen within the time constraints of an FRC season, but the relatively brief bits of inspiration can easily influence the rest of a student's educational career.

I think you're missing part of my earlier point. If we wanted to show students what professional engineers can accomplish, it would be a lot cheaper for teachers to just stick a NOVA special on the Apollo program in the VCR and pop out for a coffee. Programs like FIRST deserve to exist because they show students that THEY can become engineers and build cool things. Science has a bit of a stigma in our society and kids think they need to be super-geniuses to excel in it and programs like FIRST can dispel that myth.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

If you want to focus on a "kids can do it for themselves" environment, I think you're going to miss out on a big part of the experience of having engineering mentors as part of the team. High school students should not be expected to have the same skill sets as professional engineers who have had years more of study, learning, and practice in the relevant fields. The same goes for machining, programming, team-building, fundraising, networking, recruiting, strategic planning, etc.

To quote myself: "Build season is another story, that's when general engineering experience comes in handy, but at competitions it's all about knowing your machine." Mentors are wonderful during the build season and
I'm not proposing we eliminate them from FIRST entirely. I just think students should have a large enough role on the team that they can capably work on it in the pits.

[CommanderRachek]

I would like to reiterate what Kelly has said about our sponsor: he was not as involved as a team member or mentor, obviously, but he was not just some god throwing money down from Olympus. He knows what FIRST is. He just happens to disagree with the way the program is run in that regard.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between inspiration and learning. In order to "change the culture" we don't necessarily need to show people how to do something. We just need to show what is possible with the right training and study. That training and study is not all going to happen within the time constraints of an FRC season, but the relatively brief bits of inspiration can easily influence the rest of a student's educational career.

Here's where I think you're wrong. You do not need years and years of training to design and build a reasonably competent robot for FRC. You need years and years of training to build a perfect robot, yes, but I don't think the goal of FRC should be to produce perfect robots (and I don't think you think that either). As many pure student design/build teams (such as my own) have shown, it is possible for a group of high school students to produce a decent, functional robot with minimal (NOT nonexistent) engineering guidance from adults. Our engineering mentors have always acted as resources to be tapped, not dictators.

If I want to see what years of experience can get me, all I have to do is go look at my car. Or my cellular telephone. Or the ice maker in my refrigerator. I am literally surrounded by incredible inventions made by engineers. I don't need FIRST to see how wonderful and smart engineers are.

The thing is, just looking at the products of modern science and technology doesn't inspire much. The reason people shy away from technical fields is that they see it as some kind of black magic. Look, the engineer goes into his office, and then couple months later blueprints come out. Isn't that amazing? By having the mentors design and build the robot, the students don't get any more of an inspiring experience than taking a factory tour. All they see is magicians using tricks they learned in wizard school. However, by getting the experience of experimenting and modifying and implementing a design themselves, students realize that engineering isn't magic after all. It doesn't take a degree to make a robot; all it takes is you picking up a drill and actually building it. Even growing up in a family of scientists and engineers, that was quite possibly the best lesson I took away from FRC: being an engineer doesn't mean having a degree, it means having the patience to do the work; I can do this, too.

I can tell you right now that I would never, ever have joined my robotics team if I hadn't been allowed to be involved in the actual business of design and construction. "Watch Professionals Build a Robot Club" would have bored the stew out of me. Even if I had joined a team like that, I'm certain I would not have gotten nearly as much out of the program as I did. As it is, I am eternally grateful for my team and especially for my wonderful mentors. I think I am a much better person for having participated.

(Credit where credit is due: I didn't come up with the "black magic" analogy. One of my teammates did. It's the best way to explain it I've ever heard.)

[wendymom]

The Responsibilities of a Mentor? Good Question...several people in this post are focusing soley on engineers.

I'm not an engineer. I am a mentor. I could not engineer my way out of a tight parking space.

As I see them my responsibilities are to set a good example. To show sportsmanship, postive attitudes and to teach the students they can do what they never thought they could and then lead the celebration when they realize they can.

I also think its my job to handle the details...to make sure the paperwork is done, everyone gets fed and we all know how we are getting there and where we will sleep. Its also my job to make sure that insurance is covered and all safety measures are taken.

Its my job to drive them to companies and give them a pep talk before a cold call. Its my job to drive the robot to demos and make sure the DVD works. Its my job to remind them to send thank you notes. Its my job to remind them of homework and mothers day and to call their girlfriends.

Its my job to hound them to fill out scholarship forms, college apps and other paperwork.

Mostly its my job to help them grow up and become the amazing group that they are. I know that watching them inspires me constantly.

If stuff falls through the cracks....well it can be my fault too, and teaching them to accept responsiblity is my job too.

Sorry for the long one...just trying to get this thread back on track.

[Molten]

A mentor's job is to enable the learning of the student in the best way they can. These means may change from mentor to mentor but the responsibility is the same. Do the best you can.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Kelly

After visiting our regional, one of our sponsors proposed banning mentors from the pits.

So what does that leave as the role of a sponsor? Sending the team bags of money and applauding whatever happens next?

I've read this discussion, and have only this to add. Why was this sponsor not more involved with the team? Why did he not know what the competition was about, how the robots were built, how the teams are run? I think far too often teams have their key group of mentors, some of whom may come from school and some from a sponsor or two. But they forget to keep the rest of their sponsors informed of what is going on. Why should sponsors keep sending money if they don't know how it is being spent?

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by FourPenguins

Instead, I want to know what CDers think about the duties of a mentor. What are their responsibilities when it comes to running the team? Chaperoning the team? Teaching the students? Who should spearhead fund raising efforts? Corporate relations? Public relations?

Where does the balance lie between a mentor's duty and a student's? Where does the responsibility fall when things are left undone?

Odds are there is a sponsoring organization that has a mentor in place to be sure the basics are done and a robot gets built and shipped. That might be a teacher (school run team) or an employee (sponsor run team).

For chaperoning, if it is a school run team then the school board / administration approved the travel and there was probably a lead person identified. That person has accountability for overall chaperoning and safety of the students. That person is probably also legally responsible for those students and their safety.

I believe in most areas you have mentioned it should be a combination of the mentor and student. Hoping to avoiding starting another mentor / student led team debate, it often takes an experienced person to help identify what needs done and help layout a plan. If things go well, there is a quick transition of workload and the students do most of the work.

There are also some rules of engagement that need to be followed and so general guideance may be required from a more experienced person.

[Scott Ritchie]

Mentors:

should promote advanced skills building on those learned during the day.
Offer training in skills not yet approached in school.
force the development of communication skills in students.
show students how to work as a team of students and adults.
will show students how to efficiently approach problems.
will lead by example when showing how to handle disagreement.
will show passion about the process and try and pass it along to students.
will not take themselves too seriously.
will help students develop "Moral authority" (I love that statement for whoever said it in this thread)
Will help lay the building blocks of ethics
need to demand safety
need to have an open mind, even for new ideas
(stopped here due to time)

Students:

need to want to work with the best minds available.
need to crave more knowledge.
need to take iniciative.
need to demand a quality product after the six weeks.
need to spread the excitement of the program to the rest of the school.
need to realize they need help to expand on things that have been developed since the dawn of man.
should feel comfortable in telling their mentors want.
need to have and open mind, even for old ideas.
(stopped her due to time)

As I was making this list I realize a student needs to be at a certain level to appreciate it and expand on it. I think I would not have been able to understand some of this when I was in high school. I think I would have told you to flip sand instead of listen to the people around me. I do see however in some four year FIRST students the ability use their mentors as the valuable resource they are.

Now back to my job.

Hope it helps in some way

[Kelly]

I'm getting a bit annoyed by everyone who keeps insisting that our sponsor must be ignorant of how FIRST works if he would propose a crazy idea like expecting students to understand their own machines. He understands the policies about mentors, he just disagrees with them. And so do I, for the reasons I've outlined in this thread.

[JaneYoung]

The partnership potential involving engineers, professionals, students, sponsors, and parent support, creates endless opportunities for removing limits and allowing access to knowledge, experience, and the standards of excellence.

Students can do a lot, they can't do it all. They don't have the skill sets or experience. They won't gain those in 6 weeks but they can be exposed to them if they are working in partnership with engineers and professionals.

On the other hand, if adult mentors are doing it all without the benefit of partnership with the students and sponsors, etc., then they, too, are setting limits on what the team can do and can achieve. When I look at our HoF teams, it is very clear to me that these teams have figured out how to maximize their partnerships, their strengths, and their team potential. Each of these outstanding teams is unique - no two are alike - but they have these qualities in common. Everyone works together towards the same goal, achieving excellence, and setting the bar for the rest of us.

[Sunshine]

I believe that I am right there with you Kelly.

I'm not going to pound my beliefs or my teams' goals into others BUT................

Our robot will always be student built.

The only time you will ever see a mentor in our pit working is in an extreme emergency and then you will see them showing students how to fix the problem. We did 3 events this year. No mentor working in St. Louis or Milwaukee. We had a mentor helping/showing students how to fix major problem in Atlanta.

I have a problem with the thinking of some if they believe that this experience is not similar to a normal lab setting. Students do not learn from watching a teacher performing a tune-up in the auto shop. Students learn by doing that tune-up after they were given direction.

We were next to a team at an event that NEVER had students around except when they showed up to get the robot to compete. The mentors were constantly tweaking/fixing the robot by themselves. Again, to me, this is a major opportunity lost for the students.

For us, we have a model that has been successful for the first two years of our existence. It involves having the students take on the responsibilities of the team. We as mentors guide, direct, give instruction, teach, give demo's. But students do the work or it does not get done.

We will never build a robot, decide on its design, write a chairman's submission, create a web page or make a CAD drawing.

But we show students how to do all of these things, help with spelling and grammar and help them setup time lines so they can be successful.

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by FourPenguins

The issue of mentor involvement in robot design and construction has been beat to death, so that's not what I'm asking here.

Instead, I want to know what CDers think about the duties of a mentor. What are their responsibilities when it comes to running the team? Chaperoning the team? Teaching the students? Who should spearhead fund raising efforts? Corporate relations? Public relations?

A recent event (that I think better left undisclosed) has made me wonder what everyone thinks of a mentor's responsibility. Where does the balance lie between a mentor's duty and a student's? Where does the responsibility (edited from "blame") fall when things are left undone?

I have some general thoughts regarding the general responsibility of a mentor, philosophical at that. But I'll start with the meat of the question at hand.

Paragraph 2 response: I've seen it work best with whoever steps up to the plate to head certain parts, whether it be the sponsor's employees, parents, or teachers. I hate to put Darwinism into it, but a form of 'natural selection' seems to be a determining factor to how a team structures itself. When it comes to the responsibilities of running a team: a mentor's main responsibility is to do what he/she thinks is reasonably possible just to keep the team afloat and as a team. They need to be a sort of glue that keeps the team together and functioning. 'How' it is done is a whole different story, dependent on the team location, outside events, etc.

So we goto paragraph 3: Where does the responsibility fall when important things are left undone? My thought is this - Imagine 'n' people surrounding a water balloon. Each person has pins, and they begin to poke the balloon with the intention of popping it. One of three things can happen:

1. The balloon pops, the team of 'n' people has done its job.
2. The balloon fails to pop. Some subset of people on the team get the clever idea to grab a hammer or larger object to smash/pop the balloon (thinking outside the collective box). The job is still done and the team succeeds. (This is a rather simple way of putting it. There could have been people within the team politicking to pop the balloon with pins only, nothing else, thus leading to...)
3. The balloon fails to pop. Nobody does anything about it. The team does not do the job it has set out to do.

This is where pointing fingers is null of any point (no pun intended). So long as there was an effort, there's no blame or responsibility to take for failure. Somebody tried, and either succeeded or failed, and they still represent the team. I hope this is a pretty general answer to your inquiry in paragraph 3, absolute answers seem insufficient in my mind.

Coming off of those thoughts, I tried/try to be myself, be 'me' while being a 'me'ntor. I try to show what to do, teach what not to do (because I have probably done it myself and learned from it), and let others discover in real time all while offering some ideas on problems at hand. I am not afraid or embarrassed to make a goof because its part of being human: a commonality between mentors, sponsors, teachers, parents, students, etc. And when I do, I admit, apologize, and append to my mental list of things to do and not to do.

So in general, the responsibility(ies) of being a mentor/adviser is just to lead by example, by being human, and all while getting what needs to get done as done as possible (some things are really impossible to get done). Mistakes are great, for it makes room for more lessons to be taught, which is a point of mentoring. Just take a humanistic approach to it (punish the act not the person). Let things just fall in place naturally, including leaders who set up and fill positions that keep a team running. If guiding is needed, find a guide to do it (including you).

As a side note: I think what psychologists call observational learning is great for learning what to do and what not to do in any situation, good or bad, for students and leaders alike. Some food for thought by example from my own experiences can be found here and here (Key lessons learned: realize context, and avoid discussing volatile and flammable issues. 'Observe' and learn from the mistakes others make, including me). There's also operant conditioning, which is what I experienced in those events above. Psychology is a great thing to know as a mentor/adviser or anything in leadership for that matter.

One more thing: go here and download the powerpoint. How relevant it is to the subject here is up in the air, but I'll link to it nonetheless. (You'll need Powerpoint 2007 or the viewer to view it.) It has some great thoughts (some are a bit iffy, but mostly good. it is the opinion of the author who made it).

Hope this is a good couple cents here.

_Joe