Offseasons as your Regular Season?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Water Bandit23

Here's a question which is in part connected to this thread, but if it isn't feel free to let me know. I've heard people say "If you thought BMR was fun, just wait until IRI", but I've also heard ot the opposite "If you think this such and such off saeson event is fun, just wait 'til you get to an actual regional".

Those statements are not opposites. They are talking about two completely different things. For anyone who hasn't been to an official competition, an offseason -- even one as awesome as IRI -- cannot prepare one for the total rush connected with the whole FIRST culture. But for someone who has already experienced the fullness of an FRC competition, IRI is something extra special and spectacular. IRI has earned its reputation as a place for the big dogs to compete. For better or for worse, it has become an elite event.

In your opinion, which is better FOR YOU, a regional or an off season event(mind you, they're both awesome.)?

I choose an official regional. There's so much opportunity to inspire and be inspired, before things have played out in the regular competition season.

[Carlee10]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Those statements are not opposites. They are talking about two completely different things. For anyone who hasn't been to an official competition, an offseason -- even one as awesome as IRI -- cannot prepare one for the total rush connected with the whole FIRST culture. But for someone who has already experienced the fullness of an FRC competition, IRI is something extra special and spectacular. IRI has earned its reputation as a place for the big dogs to compete. For better or for worse, it has become an elite event.

That's not exactly what I meant. Some people say that they are both awesome, but one is better. Then the other says the reverse. These people have been to both kinds of events numerous times and say these things. To me, that means opposite. I just was wondering which sentiment more people agreed with. I myself can't remember IRI last year. I do remember BMR though. The week of IRI I have major things going on, same as last year, and I'm wondering if I should split Friday between my two conflicts. The other one is just as awesome/important. That's why I brought it up; for curiousities' sake, and for a little help in deciding.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

I think a team would miss out a lot on not going to a regional event, and especially on not going to Atlanta, but they are going to miss out even more if there is no team at all because they can't afford it. If a team were to hit a rough patch and couldn't afford a regional, I think attending off-season events would be a cheap way to keep the team going during a time of troubles, or a cheap way to get a team started. I'd rather a team attend only off season events than no events at all.

For those who don't know, here is the situation with my team (1889):

We did not compete in 2008. We registered for the UCF regional, but when we had some sponsorships that we were expecting disappear, and we had less than $2000 in the bank in November, we contacted the regional committee and said we would not be able to attend.

However, we built a robot. We set our sights on building up our team and raising funds to compete in the 2009 season, with the intention of using our robot in fall 2008 off-season events. We followed all the rules (parts usage, build season, etc.) and have a perfectly legal robot, except that we have a 2007 controller instead of a 2008 controller (same with the batteries). We built a new chassis from the kit we hadn't used the previous year. We took our COTS AndyMark gearboxes and wheels from 2007 apart to the as-received condition and re-assembled them. We purchased an IR board, a trackball, and pneumatic cylinders, and built all new components. If this had happened a year later we would be stuck buying a brand new control system and probably couldn't have pulled it off.

What we have now is a team that has learned to work together under pressure of a 6 week schedule, and we have over $6000 in the bank, with a few thousand more coming in the fall for fabrication and travel. We will drive down to Mission Mayhem (~ 45 minutes) and will spend the night in the SunDome for TNT (~3.5 hours). It would have been great to attend IRI, but that probably would have put us in financial trouble for next season.

I think that offseason events are a good way to introduce students to what they can expect during the FIRST season and start getting them excited. We considered FTC as an option last year but by the time we could have started, their season was too far along and we had no experience. Depending on funding we may go that way in the future, but I thiink we have a solid foundation. My put is that off season events are a significant part of the total program, but are not a replacement.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

For those who don't know, here is the situation with my team (1889):

Gary, thank you for sharing 1889's situation. I'm going to refer to this post as one of inspiration and making lemonade out of lemons - when I read about and hear about other teams struggling to keep afloat and wondering what they are going to do.

It is also a great example of what the tenacity and commitment of a mentor can do for a team.

Have fun at Mission Mayhem and TNT - I'll know you'll be helping other teams just like you always do.
Jane

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

I wholeheartedly disagree!!! Fun is the number one reason kids get interested in robotics through FIRST. Take fun away and you might as well kill the whole thing.

I don't deny that participating in FIRST is fun. Dean Kamen's "It's the hardest fun you'll ever have" would make a great tagline for a recruitment commercial. Removing the fun would indeed kill the program. But I maintain my position: it's not about the fun.

If fun were the goal, we could meet it much more easily by building the program around huge parties instead of around robot competitions. Come to think of it, we do tend to build huge parties around the competitions, because we want everyone to have fun. But we still have the engineering and mentorship and science and technology as the foundation.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

Then you could treat IRI as your championship event ...

But if you didn't have a pedigree established in FRC tournaments, would you be accepted at IRI?

The same might apply at many of the other off-season events:
"What's your team number?"
"We don't have one, we didn't enter FRC this year."
"OK, thanks for calling."

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

But if you didn't have a pedigree established in FRC tournaments, would you be accepted at IRI?

The same might apply at many of the other off-season events:
"What's your team number?"
"We don't have one, we didn't enter FRC this year."
"OK, thanks for calling."

Great point.
I thought of that as well, and yes that would be an issue. However, if you got in a few off-seasons before the IRI team selection, that could change some peoples minds. That is one awfully big "if" though.

[JaneYoung]

If you are looking at IRI as the Çhampionship event, you have to think about the big picture and the overall impact on the team and how it conducts itself in FIRST. The robot competition is important but so is the character of the team as well. To hurry and compete in a few off-seasons won't showcase the quality and character of the team fairly when applying for a spot.

[Andrew Schreiber]

One thing that no one has brought up, yes you could build a killer robot but you would no practice in driving it. In my opinion 1114 wasnt a stellar robot completely because of their design. (Not to say the design wasnt awesome) They were stellar because their drivers were good. Even better example, 148. Their robot was by no means the fastest in a straight speed test. Their drivers were just wicked awesome. Point is, those teams had a LOT of practice. Try putting rookie drivers in during the eliminations of a national division and you should see what your drivers would be facing. The off season competitions like IRI are so awesome because everyone knows what they are doing.

Just my .02

[Mark McLeod]

We sort of have a related situation in a very limited sense now when the pre-rookies play with loaner robots in our off-season competitions.

Granted, they typically only do this a few months before joining the full program, however, on Long Island we've had perennial pre-rookies who never were able to get it together enough to register. One school in particular has done it for three years running. Even when we have them shadow our teams through a FIRST season, unless they fully commit the potential just doesn't get realized.

The goal is to get them into the full FIRST program, of course, because they miss out on so much. They haven't sweated through the build season or even the concept and design process and so don't experience most of the FIRST benefits. They do get the camraderie of working together to repair the robots, and the experienced students work closely with them on all aspects.

I think it's viable for teams that have to drop out for a season due to a lack of finances, but only to maintain the team as they try to pull their finances together to compete officially again.

[Richard McClellan]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

There definitely would be a feel of something missing from the season, but you have time to perfect your robot and be much more creative. You also could just design a robot that is exactly like 1114 (or the Championship winner/Most dominant team). That just wouldn’t be as fun though…well kind of.

I think this would be a pretty big issue. If your "6 week build period" is after the official FRC season is over, your team will have already have seen which designs work well, and which ones don't. That kind of takes out the fun of brainstorming from scratch, and coming up an idea for something for which there isn't any good documented answers yet. And when you go to sign up for an off season event, what will they say when you tell them you designed your robot after watching all of this year's regionals? Seems like it would give you an unfair advantage at these events.

[OZ_341]

I really want to thank Corey for bringing up this discussion and playing "Devil's Advocate" with this topic. I also want to thank the responders for the respectful way in which they are replying. Its great to stop and think about the benefits of each part of the year.

As the organizer of an off-season event going into its 9th year (Ramp Riot), I can tell you that our goal is to "simulate" the regular season as best we can. I think our event comes very close, but it is not quite the regular season. When people come to Ramp Riot as thier first ever robotics event, they are often amazed. But what I will tell them is that if you think this is amazing, come to the Philly Regional in March and you'll be knocked off your feet.

But I think the two seasons need each other for FIRST to thrive. They both hold importance in different ways. The off-season is an opportunity to experiment, train, have relaxed fun, and inspire new schools and sponsors The off-season provides an environment for very long term learning for new members.

The regular season experience goes beyond words and has been covered well by others in this thread. Enough said by me. :-)

[Billfred]

1618 is in a bit of a similar boat here. We've always been a one-regional team (historically Palmetto, but we did Chesapeake this year for better timing at incrementally-higher cost). From Columbia, South Carolina, any other competition (in-season or not) involves overnight travel. In our judgment, we can gain more for thousands of dollars less from a regional and a fall off-season event than two regionals. Competing in the fall allows us to get the hooks in with our new kids; while it might not be to the same degree as a regional or the Championship, it may just be enough to make sure they're not drawn away in build season.

Of course, as always, I'd direct a team to figure out how they can best achieve their goals; if they're doing them, I can't complain.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

But if you didn't have a pedigree established in FRC tournaments, would you be accepted at IRI?

The answer to that would obviously be an unequivocal no. There are dozens of established teams that applied but didn't make the IRI invitation list this year.