Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)

[Tristan Lall]

Sure, tape them in. A lot of good that will do. If someone wants to break curfew, all they need to do is untape their door, and then untape all of the other doors.

As to the litigiousness, I think this is more a case of someone making idle threats. Consider that the article says "file charges", not "file suit". So it seems like they want to have the chaperone criminally indicted. Good luck with that. What would you charge them with, if the student was in fact able to open the door to exit in an emergency? Maybe there's a misdemeanour for violating the fire code?

[DonRotolo]

Well, it's not a lawsuit yet.

I have a feeling the kid and his parent misunderstood the quantity of tape being applied. An entire roll of good duct tape, carefully applied, might slow a hotel room door from opening in 130 milliseconds to, say, 480 mS, but surely the chaperones used a small strip (who has the time to really tape a whole door shut).

Now, if they had welded the door shut, I'd agree with the safety hazard. The hotel might frown upon that practice however.

Chapersones do need to account for some kids being more sensitive. We had a student one year who literally collapsed into tears when a man with dark skin walked towards him in the hallway. This poor businessman was just going to his room, and the kid had led an insulated life, and had never been within touching distance from someone who was not caucasian. It all ended well, but some time had to be spent calming him down. He is quite normal today, by the way.

So, all that had to happen was a statement form the chaperones: "We are putting a small strip of tape on your door, which will get unstuck if the door is opened. That's how we'll know if the door opened after curfew."


Don

PS:
Little did the chaperones know, but the astute student had learned how to re-stick the tape from inside the room...

[Protronie]

I sitting here shaking my head. Oh yeah there will be a lawsuit,and the school board will have many heated meetings over this. And there will be a few new rules and maybe someone will be forced to resign...

My question is....

Whats the big deal? Does anyone here really think that duct taping a door will keep it from opening? As for fire safety... smoke from the hall would have a tough time getting under the door.
Its a shame that someone felt the need to tape the door but I'm very sure they felt the need.
Its a shame the news media is jumping on this as they seem to be doing.
And its a shame that after this some will refuse to take kids on trips again and some groups might not be able to go on any future trips.

I guess next time they will just post a guard in the hall.

-p

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

So, all that had to happen was a statement form the chaperones: "We are putting a small strip of tape on your door, which will get unstuck if the door is opened. That's how we'll know if the door opened after curfew."

Agreed. There are high school students who do not travel and stay in hotels in groups unless they join a club or team. There isn't necessarily a lot of experience available to tap into as a resource or buffer. There's a lot of change, maturing, growth, and new experiences between 14 and 18, hopefully with some guidance along the way.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

"Taping" is a common practice when chaperones need some sleep and there is suspect students on the trip. A small piece of tape is placed across the door and jamb such that it will show if someone has opened the door. It cannot be replaced by someone inside the room but serves no purpose in keeping the door from opening. Most hotels now frown on this activity as it damages the paint. However, in a real world, you would not take a student on a trip if you did not trust them. But as all good chaperones know, even a well behaved 20 year old will act like a 12 year old every once in a while. I also know of some teams that hire security guards to watch the hallway to keep students in their rooms. What ever works for the team, school district and students is determined on a team by team, school by school basis.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I remember a speech the head of Xerox Robotics Gene Wicks told our kids one time about taping them into their rooms: "If we have to tape you into your rooms, we're not taking you."

Bingo in my mind. Our team does't tape doors either. And as Art suggests, I think its far better to teach the students respect and making the right decisions. Do we really care if the kid wants to go get a bucket of Ice at midnight? No. Do we generally find out if someone does something wrong? Yeah. We have a student leadership group that I like to think is very open with me, and we often discuss problems on the team. Not once has breaking curfew been a problem.

In my mind, I go back to that when I was in school, I never had a curfew at home (trips, all except my first year in robotics). My rule was just that I had to tell my dad when I was going to be home and where I was. If I was going to be late, or if I was going to go somewhere else, I would call my dad and let him know. I dont think he ever said no, a few times he probably said I should be home a bit earlier, but in general, he taught me to make good decisions, so he trusted me. To this day, a lot of times when I go home to visit I will call to let him know where Im going

Now as for the potential lawsuit, I think its a bit of an overreaction to sue. No one was actually hurt. But as a few people have said, I can also understand the kid having a panic attack. We have several kids that had never been on group trips before, and several that have been sheltered, and several that I could see overrreacting or getting upset at things. I think Jane is right in that the biggest deal is communication. We dont know from the article if it was or wasnt communicated, presumably not, but who knows. If the chaperones were reasonable and the kid was nervous about it, they could tape the door and ask him to open it so that he would see that it wasnt going to keep him stuck in there. But I also have to wonder if the kid was that worried, why didnt he or the other students in the room call a chaperone as soon as it happened to alleviate it?

I think we need to teach students to act respectfully, but communication is also a two way street. We should all do our best to make sure everyone understand, but being a team leader, I could see that after a while, you might forget a thing or two that might upset a kid. But really now adays, the things that get the news and that get people upset are so minor in comparison to the big picture, and this definitely seems like it could easily be solved without a lawsuit.

[ebarker]

As a mentor - If the kid needs taping, they they are staying home. We don't have the right kid.

If I were a student - I would not want to be in a group that needed taping. If I were a teenager I would most likely refuse the trip and get a new activity.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by ebarker

As a mentor - If the kid needs taping, they they are staying home. We don't have the right kid.

I know this arguement has been used in the past, but don't those kids need FIRST and be surrounded and influenced by postive role models the most?

I think some responsiblity has to be placed on the students who have to attempt to discourge rule breaking. Parents and mentors can influence those troubled students, but in the end the person's peers influence them the most. Instead of taping doors or not taking potentially troubled students, the students need to create a culture where breaking the rules is looked down upon and not tolerated.

[Wayne Doenges]

This may be a little off topic.
What do you think would happen if, in the opinion of the judge, that a lawsuit was frivolous and the lawyer was fined? Do you think there would be less stupid lawsuits?

Our team does not tape doors. We tell the students that they must be in their rooms at such and such a time. They don't have to go to sleep but they must be in their rooms. We do a hall check at the curfew time to make sure.

[JoshD]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

This may be a little off topic.
What do you think would happen if, in the opinion of the judge, that a lawsuit was frivolous and the lawyer was fined? Do you think there would be less stupid lawsuits?

While this may deter some from filing a lawsuit against someone, there are just too many lawyers out there and too many people willing to sue over anything now. I'd actually think this would make more sense if the person filing the lawsuit would be required to pay the court costs as a fine, that should make people think twice.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by ebarker

and she sends group goons out to chase kids back to their rooms.

Oooh oooh, I want that added to my job description!

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

What do you think would happen if, in the opinion of the judge, that a lawsuit was frivolous and the lawyer was fined?

Sigh, that would be far too good. Just remember that the Judge is a lawyer too...

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I know this arguement has been used in the past, but don't those kids need FIRST and be surrounded and influenced by postive role models the most?

Yes they do need FIRST and they do need the peer group to pressure them to go do the right thing. And what I'm saying is they I'd prefer to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and see if they can behave. That might be naive but I think it is a better outcome than having a lockdown. Like I said I might be naive and optimistic.

If something were to really happen I'm sure I could ask the desk clerk for door transaction report (generated by the card keys) to run down the culprit.

There are a lot of people here with a lot more experience in this than I have but my fundamental tendency is to ask for a certain level of behavior and if they manage to get themselves in trouble then they will have to face the consequences.

I'm just sitting here thinking about mentor/parent roles. When do we allow someone to 'get themselves into a hole' so the student can have the learning experience. Obviously we don't want to endanger someone, but....

We talk about students running a team and building robots we talk about the students to making decisions, with the mentors helping them make informed decisions. Are these decision just limited to the robot ? or do they extend to how to behave in the hotel ? and everywhere else ?

When I was young I was given a lot of leeway in my decision making, but I had a lot of responsibility also. The times I made what you might call 'not well considered' decisions came with some pretty tough consequences that led to some character building moments.

I'm not recommending anyone test the waters but simply to expect standards of behavior and accountability.

[acdcfan259]

I haaattteeeee people. not just the people filing th suit/charge whatever. but the kid. Get over yourself. Seriously. i was in 8th grade last year, and we went to Gettysburg. our teachers did this with electrical tape. Firstly, nobody freaked out, guess everyone here is sane. Secondly it doesn't do anything, it's just to keep you from leaving you. aahhhhhh i can't even get all my anger out coherently!!!!