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Unread 22-07-2008, 18:44
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

Giving the new system to the new teams early might be a better idea. The way it is now, the veteran teams selected for this program aren't going to run into problems because they've been given the system early. Rookie teams are going to have to learn the system as well as go through every other problem rookie teams face programming-wise (such as how to program).

I'm not sure how many bugs veteran teams are going to find in this system anyway. Isn't this just a small version of what NASA used on the mars rovers? (If not then someone correct me) I think NASA and NI would have already found any big problems with this system.

The veteran teams are going to help other teams learn how to use this system, but aren't they still put at an advantage?
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Unread 22-07-2008, 18:45
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

Remember that the judges (I happen to be one of them) will be looking for teams that are willing to actually show (aka hands on) the hardware / software in live workshops much more than the minimum requires. The challenge will be getting to those areas that are far away from the selected sites.

Depending upon the number of controllers allocated, this will be a big challenge. If the teams that are selected have the good of the entire FIRST community in mind, then organizing these workshops in various locations will help eliminate some of this problem.

I envision step by step instructions on various parts of the system (including both hardware and software) that will even help teams that don't attend any workshops at all, because I believe that the attendance rate will be quite low as will the actual submission rate.
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Unread 22-07-2008, 21:07
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

Just had a question, will it be up to the teams to get the word out about any workshops they will be holding in various areas or will we be able to post that on the blogs to get the word out quickly and effectively?

-thanks
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Unread 22-07-2008, 22:29
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

I think the teams that agree to do this, and follow through with their plans, will gain a small advantage of "learning by doing", but i believe the entire community will gain an advantage by having teams working with the system, finding issues and sharing knowledge. I think this will make the official season and competition much better.

In reality, the top performing teams would probably get to a high level of performance even in just the six weeks of build season, this will let them bring lots of other teams with them this fall.

It will take a lot of work and effort and I applaud every team that is selected.
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Unread 22-07-2008, 23:17
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

I can see how the newer teams might be worried about the advantages here, but I think if the judges do their jobs correctly, teams that already have a history of working with other teams will be chosen. For example, for the last two months, we have been running labview seminars for all of the local teams every other week. It started as an idea that we were in a panic over the new control system and wanted to train our kids over the summer, but then we realized we could just as easily invite all the other teams in the area to show up too. We also post it on our forum (you have to be logged in to see & download files) so that everyone can access it, especially if they miss a class.

Think about it, if you are going into your second year of FIRST and struggled to just barely program your robot last year, you may have even gotten some help from local teams... would you like to be selected and struggle your way through fighting out the bugs of the new control system? or be able to tag along with a more experienced team that might be able to move past the stages of troubleshooting bugs and actually be able to show you how to use the system? I think some people are underestimating the potential for major bugs in this system. Nothing against NI - we are VERY excited for this control system, but any engineer can tell you at the very first stages of development and Beta test, there are going to be a ton of bugs to work through. Beta teams will use the controller in ways the designers never thought of, and this is going to end up as MUCH more of a testing and troubleshooting environment than it is going to be "learning and gaining advantage over teams that dont have it". But we are thrilled that they are going to try and get as much hands on testing with this system before they actually send it out in the kit of parts... to be honest, we were scared that teams wouldnt get to touch the first model until kickoff... FIRST is doing us and themselves a HUGE service by putting out this program now... I see very little need to argue about the advantages & disadvantages. My suggestion? If you dont win it but wanted to... find your closest team that did win, or even set up online with another team to see how you can help them, to see what you can learn from them on a day to day basis rather than just sulking and reading the blogs...

I am glad to see that FIRST is going to require teams to open up all of the code that they develop, as I think it might usher in a new age of teams sharing. I know the Rochester teams have a great history of helping eachother with everything from preseason training to build season sharing of resources & mentors, I'm hoping that this will get more regions to do the same.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 00:18
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

If you've read through this thread and you're still skeptical about the ultimate benefit to giving beta units to select veteran teams, I have one simple argument.

For the past several years, CD and the FRC community have benefited from the programming and electrical expertise of the likes of Kevin Watson, Alan Anderson, Don Rotolo, dcbrown, Al Skierkiewicz, and numerous others. We've had Kevin's massively useful codebase and many intro programming seminars for rookies, in addition to all the tech support on CD.

Now picture how well things are going to go if all of our expert help suddenly disappears at the exact moment we have a huge paradigm shift in our control system. Everyone getting the control system at the same time means that suddenly no one is an expert. And no one has anywhere to turn for help. The veteran teams with very talented programming help will catch on quick enough, but rookies and less experienced teams are going to be left with no clue what's going on and no where to turn for help, as our experts are going to be far too busy playing catchup themselves to be nearly as effective as they are now. They'll certainly try, but on the whole, I think it makes a lot more sense to rebuild our grassroots support that's worked so well for us in the past, in stead of deliberately shooting ourselves in the foot in the name of complete fairness and equity.

Also, did anyone else notice that the email didn't mention anything about the C++ interface or whether or not a team will be using that over Labview? If you have two teams in an area, and one's dedicated to C++ and another to Labview, I think it makes perfect sense to let both teams into the program. But I didn't see any mention of it...
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Unread 23-07-2008, 09:38
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Re: Call to all Teams: Participate in the Beta Test of the New Control System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
Not just blogs, mind you--teams are being required to open up their shops to other teams (where one can see things up close, often by necessity if your shop's anything like mine), hold a Saturday workshop (another opportunity to see everything up close), and release all their code (which not only lets me see what they've done on my own time, but gives me a chance to turn their own firepower against them come regionals). It certainly appears that FIRST is doing everything within their power to minimize the competitive advantage these teams could receive. I don't know how one could get an edge on it, short of cheating.
I know that the teams that are picked will do all they can to help other teams, but the nature of getting things first is that it's an advantage (and an unfair one at that).

Open up their shops? -- Yes they will do this, but seeing a robot/program run and getting a few questions answered vs actually programming it with the nuances of a specific controller are 2 different things. And it's the little things that those teams overcome that will be 'missed' by the teams that don't get that advantage.

Saturday workshops? -- 4 hours in a lecture/lab on a Saturday does not make up for 3+ hours Monday-Friday getting the thing running.

Release all the code? -- Does this include competition code? all the code from now til doomsay? or just until others get the RC? and when does this code have to be released by? getting code that runs on one machine does not mean that it will run on another without knowlege of why it runs (which the veteran teams are getting that knowlege, and the others aren't) and what will need to be modified.

Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.

Again, I want to state that I know these teams will do what they can to help others ... but that doesn't change the fact that they are being given an advantage and that FIRST is deliberately excluding groups that may want to help.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 09:48
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

First of all, I think its a huge unfair advantage for Veteran teams to get to test the RC before other teams.

I don't think anyone from a veteran team would say that they would ever learn more by going to a seminar rather than programming it themselves, or looking at code rather than writing it themselves, and seeing the results of it.

Its unfair that teams that are new, or have fewer resources are not allowed the same advantages as expert teams. I really don't think that point can be argued against.

However, thats reality, and thats the best thing for FIRST as a whole, and even for rookie teams. FIRST CANNOT give every team a RC early. Its not possible. FIRST needs to give it to the teams that benefit the community the best as a whole. Also, rookie teams benefit more by having expert teams help them, than they would without the help. This program does nothing to level the playing field. In fact, it possibly makes the playing field even more uneven, but it also helps ALL teams, and it helps avert possible disaster during the season.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 10:08
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

The teams that were selected for the NI LabVIEW and Data Acquisition Pilot Program.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=40813 http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=50566
What did you learn from your experiences and is there a place that the FIRST community can go to in order to read lessons learned or helpful tips.
Some of our mentors have gone to a NI Lab View seminar at a local Marriott and have recievied some information but are eager to learn more.

Thanks in advance.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 10:13
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Re: Call to all Teams: Participate in the Beta Test of the New Control System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
I know that the teams that are picked will do all they can to help other teams, but the nature of getting things first is that it's an advantage (and an unfair one at that).

Open up their shops? -- Yes they will do this, but seeing a robot/program run and getting a few questions answered vs actually programming it with the nuances of a specific controller are 2 different things. And it's the little things that those teams overcome that will be 'missed' by the teams that don't get that advantage.

Saturday workshops? -- 4 hours in a lecture/lab on a Saturday does not make up for 3+ hours Monday-Friday getting the thing running.

Release all the code? -- Does this include competition code? all the code from now til doomsay? or just until others get the RC? and when does this code have to be released by? getting code that runs on one machine does not mean that it will run on another without knowlege of why it runs (which the veteran teams are getting that knowlege, and the others aren't) and what will need to be modified.

Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.

Again, I want to state that I know these teams will do what they can to help others ... but that doesn't change the fact that they are being given an advantage and that FIRST is deliberately excluding groups that may want to help.
Daniel, I understand where you are coming from and maybe it is a disadvantage because the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting the controller to mess around with before kickoff.

Here are few things I would like to point out...

1) We don't have single programmer on the team (Team 1345). We have had the help from Team 108's programmers and Kevin Watson's code.

2) It's just not a "lecture." FIRST teams function differently than most other organizations. If you are to ask an expert in FIRST (whether mechanical, electrical or software), they won't say no and they will explain the concept to you until you understand and I am willing to bet that teams who are chosen will have workshops for local teams which will be hands on and just not a lecture.

3) Teams who will beta test this control system will release codes. No they won't give you your robot's competition code. But we will at least have the default code. FIRST has already suggested programmers to look at specific programming language. If the default code is given to you and if your programmer has been training him/herself, he/she should be able to write the rest of the code. If not, take your robot out to the local team and ask them for help. They will help you with the code just as Team 108 did for Team 1345 this past season.

4) All the knowledge that I have gained from this FIRST program is from usually researching about different things. For example, I didn't have an actual transmission to play with when I designed my first transmission. I came out here and looked at what others have done. I took their design and modified it to my needs. Isn't that how engineering works?

I am assuming that there will be very few controllers for this beta testing. How do you propose FIRST to choose these few teams out of existing 1,500 teams around the world?
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Unread 23-07-2008, 11:49
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

Everyone needs go back and read the first goal for this program:
Quote:
* Give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure to the 2009 control system;
This will NOT be a case of one team gets the software to play with on their own, and everyone else gets to listen to seminars or read blogs. Successful team applications to get the beta-test will have to show how they are going to share it with others. I've already spoken with a mentor of a team likely to apply, and told him to include our team in their application for sharing the test, as an example of a team whose programmer has graduated. FIRST will no doubt be interested in finding out how user-friendly this system is for newbies. But they aren't going to give it to a newbie who can only test basic functions. Veteran teams are more likely to have advanced features on their robots.

In fact, I suspect several "powerhouse veteran" teams will submit joint applications. FIRST would be hard-pressed to decide which is the ONE best team to test the system in New England, or CA, or MI, or TX, or NY. A successful application will point out the multitude of functions that can be checked using 2 or 3 or 4 machines. Want to test standard drive, mechanum, crab? That will require more than one machine. Want to test more than one auto/hybrid mode? Want to test multiple limit switches, sensors, etc? Give the new controls to a team that will share them with as many teams as possible, and you'll get the widest test possible.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 12:25
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Re: Call to all Teams: Participate in the Beta Test of the New Control System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.
This seems to be pretty much exactly what they are saying.

At the risk of sounding rude, or elitist, is there any indication that these teams are up to the task?

I'm sure some are, but most aren't. And even if some were, they're not going to be able to hold up on paper next to teams that have been around for 15 years, and exemplify every criteria FIRST is looking for. So ultimately the teams you mention get left out anyways, just with the appearance of the process being more "fair".

We have two options here. FIRST does what it's doing now, and gives out 15 beta units, or we get zip and everyone goes into 09 blind.

How many times has FIRST introduced new components, scoring systems, etc without them having properly tested? Can't we all just be happy and thank our lucky stars that for once they actually want input from the community, and are attempting to make what is sure to be a difficult transition a little bit smoother?

There's no way to have the cake and eat it too, here. Will beta test teams get an advantage? Yes, but it is necessary for the greater good of the program.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 12:46
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Re: Call to all Teams: Participate in the Beta Test of the New Control System

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
This seems to be pretty much exactly what they are saying.

At the risk of sounding rude, or elitist, is there any indication that these teams are up to the task?

I'm sure some are, but most aren't. And even if some were, they're not going to be able to hold up on paper next to teams that have been around for 15 years, and exemplify every criteria FIRST is looking for. So ultimately the teams you mention get left out anyways, just with the appearance of the process being more "fair".

We have two options here. FIRST does what it's doing now, and gives out 15 beta units, or we get zip and everyone goes into 09 blind.

How many times has FIRST introduced new components, scoring systems, etc without them having properly tested? Can't we all just be happy and thank our lucky stars that for once they actually want input from the community, and are attempting to make what is sure to be a difficult transition a little bit smoother?

There's no way to have the cake and eat it too, here. Will beta test teams get an advantage? Yes, but it is necessary for the greater good of the program.
I Agree. Of course, the Poofs are quite possibly going to be a team getting a beta unit, and TigerTronics (my team) are definitely not getting one. I wish we were, but reality dictates that FIRST needs to do what is best for all, and not what is necessarily "fair."

Thats life.
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Unread 23-07-2008, 13:00
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

I am a mentor on a 2nd year team and FIRST seems to be taking a prudent course of action. Step back and treat this as an optimization problem. The goal is to obtain the best possible control system for 2009 with a limited set of resources. Technical know how, geographic location, track record, and yes fairness are all variables (add your own). How would you go about solving it? I can think of many alternatives but the advertised program seems pretty good.

Personally I'm excited about the potential to work closely with more experienced teams. I would love it if locally 116 or 612 were able to be part of the program but if not then are there any options to be able to coordinate with teams virtually? Just being able to review designs, code along with asking questions is valuable in my opinion.
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Re: Call to all Teams: Participate in the Beta Test of the New Control System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
Daniel, I understand where you are coming from and maybe it is a disadvantage because the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting the controller to mess around with before kickoff.

Here are few things I would like to point out...

1) We don't have single programmer on the team (Team 1345). We have had the help from Team 108's programmers and Kevin Watson's code.
I'm not too concerned about my teams ability to program. We have 8 students that can and will be programming. Imbedded systems are different than most as they tend to have their own way of handling and addressing I/O. It's these nuances that will not (unless they are specifically mentored) be conveyed well to the newer teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
2) It's just not a "lecture." FIRST teams function differently than most other organizations. If you are to ask an expert in FIRST (whether mechanical, electrical or software), they won't say no and they will explain the concept to you until you understand and I am willing to bet that teams who are chosen will have workshops for local teams which will be hands on and just not a lecture.
Again, the issue is not whether or not teams will answer questions ... of course they will.

The issue is that the teams without knowlege of how the controller responds (to things like PID controls) won't know the proper questions to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
3) Teams who will beta test this control system will release codes. No they won't give you your robot's competition code. But we will at least have the default code. FIRST has already suggested programmers to look at specific programming language. If the default code is given to you and if your programmer has been training him/herself, he/she should be able to write the rest of the code. If not, take your robot out to the local team and ask them for help. They will help you with the code just as Team 108 did for Team 1345 this past season.
I wasn't asking about my teams robots code ... I was asking about their competition code. Billfred said something about using their own firepower against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
4) All the knowledge that I have gained from this FIRST program is from usually researching about different things. For example, I didn't have an actual transmission to play with when I designed my first transmission. I came out here and looked at what others have done. I took their design and modified it to my needs. Isn't that how engineering works?
Sometimes. If you want to learn how something works, taking apart one is a good start.

Most of the time, however, engineering is about problem solving. Generally you are not given a working object ... instead you are given a list of specifications and you need to make a device that matches all of those specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
I am assuming that there will be very few controllers for this beta testing. How do you propose FIRST to choose these few teams out of existing 1,500 teams around the world?
Teams should submit test plans for what they are going to do. They should be required to only have the beta units for a fixed length of time to ensure that their competitive advantage is minimalized. All code should be accessable (read only) to all teams at all times. All beta testers should be required to keep and publish (on a official FIRST site) an engineering notebook (possibly an engineering diary as well) on their findings.

Before kickoff All teams should recieve their controller, with the beta teams recieving theirs 1/2 their testing time later.

The above would limit the advantage, not exclude any group (as it's only based on the test plan), and would still give beta testing reports to all.

JM(NS)HO
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