**FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

[David Doerr]

I'm not on the judging panel, but I have had the experience of submitting an application.

When I did our team's submittal yesterday August 13th, a red-dashed-line box appeared around the submitter-box and a popup window appeared indicating that I had tried to submit more than 2500 characters.

Prior to that, when I checked our application with MS Word, it appeared as though we had under 2500 characters -- including spaces, periods, etc. I suspect that the submitter box checks end-of-line characters in addition to those that MS Word counts. I removed about 40-some characters and our application submitted correctly.

You could check all characters, including end-of-lines, if you have access to unix with the "wc -c" command.

Hope this helps...

Dave D

[Shadow503]

Does anyone know if the character limit is just a front end thing or is the php code going to re validate the essay before submitting. If there is no server side code enforcing this, maybe some inline javascript could buy us a few more characters. . .

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

Does anyone know if the character limit is just a front end thing or is the php code going to re validate the essay before submitting. If there is no server side code enforcing this, maybe some inline javascript could buy us a few more characters. . .

That wouldn't be graciously professional.

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

Does anyone know if the character limit is just a front end thing or is the php code going to re validate the essay before submitting. If there is no server side code enforcing this, maybe some inline javascript could buy us a few more characters. . .

Originally Posted by Pikat

That wouldn't be graciously professional.

Regardless, I don't think it'd work. Whatever database this is going into probably has a filter on the incoming data, and by bypassing the javascript on the page, you could even corrupt your own entry, if there is nothing checking the data coming in.

And it wouldn't be GP.
Jacob

[Shadow503]

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over? Their character counter includes line breaks, so arguably we could use the additional characters for formatting to improve the readability of the essay, thus making the job of the person reviewing the essay easier. I do agree that it probably wouldn't work, as they likely already have code in place to trim quotation marks & ect. so they probably threw in a filter too.

Either way, we're under 2500 characters, so I'm not trying anything funny. Good luck to all who are applying!

[=Martin=Taylor=]

I have a pretty obvious question. (someone might already have answered it)

What happens if no team from our area gets the chance to beta test the new system? After all, there are only 15 of them... Do we just get to read about it online?

I wouldn't count on 254 getting the system. They aren't exactly famous for their autonomous programming capabilities...

To quote a great man:

Originally Posted by Bill Gold

What's an autonomous mode?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

The answer to that would be yes. Specifically, the people who care are the ones who will be reading the application:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Here is a warning for those of you thinking of posting over 2500 characters (becasue the system will let you): don't do it. Your entire essay will not even be looked at. Please follow this simple rule. Be concise and be clear as everyone has this limit.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over? Their character counter includes line breaks, so arguably we could use the additional characters for formatting to improve the readability of the essay, thus making the job of the person reviewing the essay easier. I do agree that it probably wouldn't work, as they likely already have code in place to trim quotation marks & ect. so they probably threw in a filter too.

Either way, we're under 2500 characters, so I'm not trying anything funny. Good luck to all who are applying!

This is one of those instances that I really think GP does apply (although people tend to use it as a scapegoat for things they don't like around here) The rules of the beta test application are the same for everyone and while you "may only be adding a few characters" you are intentionally trying to circumvent rules that are in place.

Also in a similar note since this beta test has said that they want chairman's teams what kind of role model team does things like this. Now I am not trying to make a big deal about this but every once in a while people need to stop and think about what they say or do from those perspectives.

I read and article reciently that talked about the current generation of technical savvy people and how many feel entitled to whatever is technically possible. For example borrowing photos from google images on the easy side or from a harder perspective leaching data from a site for your own uses. While these are both technically possible there are ethics around doing so. Basically just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should and being savvy enough doesn't entitle you to being above the law. < enough ranting now back to your regular scheduled thread.>

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

I have a pretty obvious question. (someone might already have answered it)

What happens if no team from our area gets the chance to beta test the new system? After all, there are only 15 of them... Do we just get to read about it online?

Divide the total geographic area populated by FIRST teams worldwide by 15 or whatever the heck the actual number is, and you still get......a really freaking big area. I imagine most teams will have to LEARN (don't say "read" - we want audiovisual documentation too!) about it online as they will be too far distant from their closest beta tester to actually visit them and see the hardware in person.

I hope whichever teams are given this burden and responsibility to the FIRST community, they leverage whatever technology they have at their disposal to effectively demonstrate their findings to all of us. Written documentation alone simply isn't enough. The community needs pictures, videos, online tutorials - perhaps even teleconferences where remote teams can see and speak with beta testers in realtime. If you arrange seminars for in-person demonstrations, plan for an online component as well, via webcasting and other means.

Whoever is chosen for this privilege - be creative and thorough in how you share with the rest of the community. We're all depending on you!

Aside from all beta test teams learning the control system basics early on, which is a given (and hopefully beta testers will conspire early and often to decide who is going to document what and when and how such that we end up with the most diverse body of documentation possible following this testing phase, instead of 15 "This is how you turn the thing on" videos ), will there be any mechanism in place to ensure that teams will specialize in enough "custom" development areas that there isn't too much overlap? I don't think we need 12 teams focusing on vision development, for instance. Who will manage the overall program coordination?

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

Just to add one more thought to this.

Applications for beta test teams will be reviewed by a panel of Championship Woodie Flowers Award Winners.

This is the panel who will review your submission. They became WFAs because of their integrity, their contributions to FIRST, and their own understanding and demonstrations of Gracious Professionalism. I think it is very very cool that the WFAs are a part of this effort in such a wonderful way. It's one of the things that makes FIRST so unique and so special and we should never lose sight of why we have the Woodie Flowers Award in the first place and how that impacts our community.

I read the rest of your post stating that you are under the character limit, I just wanted to take an opportunity to talk about our WFAs and their value.

[Dowjonesbotics]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

I'm sorry but even considering doing something like this is pathetic and I hope that you don't do anything stupid like this.

Please note that this person does not reflect the views of team 141...he's just making himself look bad. That team would never even consider such a thing.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

will there be any mechanism in place to ensure that teams will specialize in enough "custom" development areas that there isn't too much overlap? I don't think we need 12 teams focusing on vision development, for instance. Who will manage the overall program coordination?

We cover that in our submission - the selected teams need to understand the burden and disadvantage they are subjecting themselves to.

Disadvantage? Yup. All the time we'll be spending fiddling with the controller will be time we cannot cover other subjects in Pi-Tech Academy, so while we might get good at the controller, we'll have a LOT to make up for every other thing it takes to build a FIRST Robot.

Burden? Yes. You think this is a cakewalk? Not only do you need a very intense program - we are thinking it will be almost like build season for 3 extra months - you have the additional burden of documenting everything. And not just "post a note on CD every few weeks" - I mean, you need to make teams from anywhere really, really understand this beastie, from afar - you need papers, code, video, drawings...a LOT of extra work, compared to just the Academy or even build season.

I'm not sure my family will be as understanding as they are in January. Heck, it might not even be fun. But Professionals do what they have to do, consistently and reliably. The gracious part comes from not grumbling or slacking.

The reward? Like last year at GTR, when some kid who lived a thousand miles from home, who I'd only conversed with by e-mail, found me and thanked me for teaching him how to do PID. Priceless.

Don

[Andrew Schuetze]

Team 499, Toltechs, up-loaded our application yesterday. I am more than curious as to how many teams have done so and from what geographical areas? San Antonio, Texas

Do we need a new thread for this or can we keep adding to this one?

APS

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

We cover that in our submission - the selected teams need to understand the burden and disadvantage they are subjecting themselves to.

Disadvantage? Yup. All the time we'll be spending fiddling with the controller will be time we cannot cover other subjects in Pi-Tech Academy, so while we might get good at the controller, we'll have a LOT to make up for every other thing it takes to build a FIRST Robot.

That's probably the same thing that I would be worried about disrupting if we get the chance to beta test. MORT U would be hurt but then I remember how much the entire FIRST community in our area would benefit. If you guys get the system to test and learn about then maybe the members that you are not able to teach, you can send over to our high school for MORT U. It could work out if we really need it to.

[Karthik]

Team 1114 just submitted our application. Hopefully we'll be selected, as we're very excited to possibly develop some code that can be used by the entire community in 2009. As Don said, the teams selected will have to do a lot of work, but it will definitely be worth it.