New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

Not to mention the those crate gremlins won't be able to get at your 'bot. I wonder if the bag gremlins and trailer gremlins are just as bad?

Trailer gremlins... cringe. I here trailer gremlins love to mess with dry rotted tires and poorly kept wheel bearings.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Oris

Finally I can not agree more with Jim Z. during the practice day there are way to many people upgrading or changing their robot. I have seen people bring totally different manipulators and spend the whole day modifying their robot. If people are going to do this wouldn't you want to do it at your own facility?

We don't have access to a full size playing field during the season. We NEED Thursday to test and modify our robot so that it performs competitively, both mechanically and in software. Maybe Michigan has more full playing fields floating around for testing during the build season, but other areas don't.

[johnr]

Originally Posted by johnr

Possible upside- no longer will our bots be tucked inside some truck,moving from regional to regional. Time to buy that trailer you wanted. Paint it up with sponsors and watch the roads fill-up for acouple of weekends. Maybe buy one of those suvs people are giving away and put it away till next season. Wonder if you can buy trailer stock?

Downside?-parking will fill-up fast.
You know, in michigan teams are pretty helpful. We have been invited to use practice fields every year. We just seem to need that first regional to get the bot up to speed.I guess we will have to suck it up and work alittle harder to get to one of those pre-ship events.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by johnr

Downside?-parking will fill-up fast.
You know, in michigan teams are pretty helpful. We have been invited to use practice fields every year. We just seem to need that first regional to get the bot up to speed.I guess we will have to suck it up and work alittle harder to get to one of those pre-ship events.

The first regional is always a steep learning curve. On the Bright Side, now you get a second event to shine at with a "fully" tuned machine.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by IKE

The first regional is always a steep learning curve. On the Bright Side, now you get a second event to shine at with a "fully" tuned machine.

This may be a dumb question but if there are more matches to play/participate in at the events, won't that help with the process?

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This may be a dumb question but if there are more matches to play/participate in at the events, won't that help with the process?

But of course, there's no such thing as a dumb question...
With more matches, it will probably help most teams get their robot almost completely tuned up before the second day. But if we had a Thursday...we could use that time to do the tuning up, and as a result would play better in the matches on Friday. Oftentimes, there's not a huge gap between matches, and that doesn't provide a lot of time to have a failing aspect of the robot completely changed. With the practice day, we have a field to test features on, and if they don't work, we have an almost unlimited amount of time to fix them.

So yes, it would help, but it's not as good as a Thursday.

[Katie_UPS]

I'm going to admit, I've only read the first 5 pages, and I'm sure what I'm saying has been said numerous times.

But to voice my opinion anyways;

Originally Posted by acdcfan259

Now for my question. If this were adapted for all of FIRST, the way I understand it teams would have to stay in state. Correct me if I'm wrong. One thing that I enjoy about our team is that we travel to a far away regional. Now traveling isn't the only reason I'm here, but it certainly is a big bonus. It's nice to get away from home and to see other places.

This was my first thought when a mentor told us about the change.
I'm prolly preaching to the choir but;
Benefits from being Away From Home;
Team Bonding
Everyone is togeather for the three/four day span (therefor no unexpected absenses, no accidental lateness, etc)
Seeing Teams you wouldn't see otherwise...
And I'm sure you can fill in other reasons.

Originally Posted by Cory

I have a couple of main issues with this plan:

1) Regionals will feel more like high school sporting events. They will not be nearly as impressive as they currently are. Which is going to look better to sponsors, potential benefactors, etc: taking them to a high school gym, without all the A/V, and everything else that makes a FIRST event special, or taking them to a professional sporting venue filled with FIRST teams, professional A/V, etc? It'll be like a bunch of offseason events.


2) Quality/variety of teams. This probably won't be noticed in MI, since MI is home to many of FIRST's best teams, but I can guarantee it will be elsewhere. In states without an abundance of top teams, the competitions will not be very exciting. It's boring watching FRC events without good robots,and without having non-local talent coming in to the historically weaker events, you end up with the same group of teams, and a not very exciting competition. Even if we disregard such situations, one of the best parts of a regional event is getting to meet and play with new teams from all over the country (and Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc).

Everyone is mentioning the lack of quality that the new events will have, which will make it harder to impress sponsors.

And although the new system will hopefully make things cheaper, its still hard to get sponsors. Which also mentioned periodically throughout the thread.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

-One major advantage I see from this is that more competitions will allow teams to improve their robots more over the course of the competition (particularly the rookies). For rookies that only attend one event, they do not get another chance to improve their robots.

Originally Posted by Ken Streeter

Michigan teams, for a lower initial entry fee then teams in other states, will get to attend two district events, rather than one regional event. This is a big benefit, as not only do these Michigan teams get more playing time for less money, but they have the opportunity to think about, and then fix, the robot in between the two district events. In order for teams in other states to have that opportunity, they need to register for not only one regional, but two regionals, at a total cost of $10000 - ($6000 for initial event; $4000 for the subsequent event.)

Yes, there will be an advantage, but if this works out and makes FIRST that much better, then we can handle it. And if it doesn't work out? Now we know. I don't think this should really be an issue. Its unfair to us, but its also unfair to Michigan teams. I'm sure some of them aren't happy about this, and we might think they're lucky, but I'm sure they're thinking we're lucky.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

-If FIRST didn't take risks, we'd still be playing 1v1 on a feild covered in corn. Right?

True that.



Sot sum up my veiws;

If this becomes the future, I'll miss out-of-state events
The smaller regionals won't be as much fun
It'll be cheaper for some teams (but maybe not for others)
It might discourage sponsors
Michigan team advantage shouldn't be a concern right now.

FIRST encourages us innovate, we need to encourage them innovate.

[commodoredl]

I'm feeling a little apprehensive about this. Obviously the growth of FIRST is always a great thing, but as has been said, locking teams into this system was not welcome by everyone. I also feel that making FIRST into more of a varsity sport than a professional one is anticlimactic, since there is nothing higher in the hierarchy than FRC and it should be treated as the best of the best. If people want to encourage growth in FIRST, IMHO, they should have continued with FRC being in its current regional-championship structure and made the smaller FTC into a varsity-type sport which could lead up to FRC teams.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by commodoredl

I also feel that making FIRST into more of a varsity sport than a professional one is anticlimactic, since there is nothing higher in the hierarchy than FRC and it should be treated as the best of the best.

Several people have used this agruement against this new system, and I don't really understand it. How is this new system making FRC less 'professional'?

As a fan, I'm really excited and hope this new system works out. By forcing teams to do well in the district competitions to qualify for the state competition will only increase the stakes and increase the competition. Then, the state competitions should be very competitive as only the better teams are there. I would think that if this new system gets implemented in all states, the only way to get to Atlanta would be to qualify in the state competitions (as opposed to signing up early), which would mean that the Championship event would (for the first time) have the best 300 or so robots, resulting an a very competitive and exciting two days.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Several people have used this agruement against this new system, and I don't really understand it. How is this new system making FRC less 'professional'?

Bingo! Repped.

As a fan, I'm really excited and hope this new system works out. By forcing teams to do well in the district competitions to qualify for the state competition will only increase the stakes and increase the competition.

So do I, but for other reasons. Michigan had a choice to make. They could either try out this new district/state system, or try to create another full regional somewhere in the state. That, or be faced with the prospect of either limiting growth of FIRST in Michigan, or telling teams that there wasn't enough space in the regionals so they would be forced to travel. If Michigan got as few as 20 more teams in the next year or two, there wouldn't be enough spots in the existing regionals for all of them to play, let alone trying to go to a second regional.

If this works out, other areas that already have multiple regionals a close distance apart (such as NY/LI) would have another model as those regionals begin to fill. In any event, FRC in general has to face their growing pains. They can't continue to add 200-300 teams per year, and expect there to be regionals added on to meet the demand. Eventually there will have to be another model of competition format. Michigan is trying one out - one that happens to be lower cost for the teams. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Maybe it won't translate to situations everywhere. It remains to be seen.

FLL faced up to their growth pains by not inviting every state champion to the World Festival. FTC invited only the captains of the winning alliances to Atlanta. I'm sure that these wouldn't be acceptable alternatives for FRC.

[commodoredl]

Originally Posted by Q&A

While the venues for district events will change and range from college arenas to convention centers to high school gymnasiums, the competition structure will remain the same.
...
Local district events are more like varsity sports where families, schools, local government, media, and businesses come to cheer and become involved.

That's where I've been getting the "less professional" vibe from. Admittedly it doesn't sound like the end of FIRST as we know it. And if Kettering was pretty good, as people are saying, then I guess I don't have to worry just yet.

On another note, are teams going to be shoehorned into district events by location or will they be allowed to sign up like any other regional?

[acdcfan259]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Several people have used this agruement against this new system, and I don't really understand it. How is this new system making FRC less 'professional'?

Let's see what's more professional, a high school gymnasium with 30-40 teams or a stadium full of anywhere from 40-70 teams?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by acdcfan259

Let's see what's more professional, a high school gymnasium with 30-40 teams or a stadium full of anywhere from 40-70 teams?

What's more professional, NFL teams playing in their normal stadiums or playing in the Coliseum (home to USC's Trojans)?

Answer that, and I'll answer your question.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Several people have used this agruement against this new system, and I don't really understand it. How is this new system making FRC less 'professional'?

I wouldn't use professional, but I would use 'less worthy of potentially [tens of] thousands of dollars our money for sponsorship'. Or less 'Wow, that's really unique!' and more 'oh, you have one of those teams too? That's um... nice. Now can you let me get back to work?'.

Look at your local high school sports teams. Chances are if they have team sponsors, it's places like Joe's Service Station or Hometown Bank for amounts like $250 or $500. You don't see Nike or Adidas or Reebok sponsoring high school sports teams for $5k, $10k or $20k+ each. Why? Because there are just so many of them - it wouldn't be economically feasible.

FRC teams as they currently stand can enjoy a lot higher corporate sponsorships than high school sports teams largely because they aren't in every high school, and because they can have a positive effect for the sponsoring company.

And my greatest concern is that it is impossible to cut so much "excess costs" from FRC that it becomes cheap enough to get into every high school without sacrificing the core strengths of FRC from the program. If they do manage to get it cheap enough, you'll end up with a program that more or less is exactly the same as FTC or IFI Vex.

So why kill your "crown jewel" competition model, the one that is great for getting large name sponsors [and their sponsorship donations] and for exciting and inspiring everyone with something that is "over the top" of all the rest of the robotics competitions, just to turn it into a low-cost program that already exists?

It all comes down to economics. I don't think it is economically possible to get FRC into every high school in the country. And this is coming from someone who lives in what is often cited as the "richest state" in the country. There's a reason why the number of new FRC teams in Connecticut hasn't drastically changed for years - and that's all the major sources of funding (corporate and government) have already been been tapped.

And in these economic hard times, with many town and state governments running in the red and pushing severe budget cuts to get into the black, and companies looking to shed excess costs anywhere they can to stay afloat, this isn't the time to look to press for huge expansion of the program. Rather, this is the time to hunker down, shore up the existing resources, and wait until the economy improves to begin a large growth of the program. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure when you can't get the necessary funding in place to properly do a district-level competition, and that's not fair for the teams who are "locked-in" to that format.

I'm not opposed to growing FIRST by any measure, but I am opposed to doing it unsustainably. I'm tired of constantly pushing to get new teams started, just to watch them fade after a year or two because there isn't enough companies in the area to provide the sponsorship to keep them afloat. There are much better, cheaper methods (FTC and Vex) that are a lot more sustainable for immediate large growth of the program.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by acdcfan259

Let's see what's more professional, a high school gymnasium with 30-40 teams or a stadium full of anywhere from 40-70 teams?

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but the problem is that the stadiums are not full or even close to full. I've only been to the Wisconsin (3 years) and Midwest (2 years) regionals, but even on Saturday afternoon those stadiums is at best 25% full. While I did enjoy being on the field looking up at all the seats, it was a little depressing looking at all the empty seats. It also could not have been cost effective to rent out those stadiums for three days, either.

I think that if you do the distict competitions properly--good lighting and sound, the full gymnasium may provide a better atmosphere than the mostly empty stadiums. (A class of 25 students in a room that has 50 desks looks a lot smaller than a class of 25 students in a room with 25 desks). And, you would save a lot of money.

If I remember reading it correctly, the Michigan State competition will be held at GLR, so I would assume it would have the same atmosphere everyone is used to at the Regionals.