Sport or not?

[Jeff K.]

John, this isn't a flame at you. I have great respect for you, but I'm just using some of your quotes to get my thoughts flowing.

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

"Sports" are nothing more than entertainment.

You might want to watch out when you say that. I'm not exactly sure olympic athletes training all their lives for the most grueling two and a half weeks of competition would like to know that they are doing nothing more than entertaining.

I don't see sports as only a thing to watch on the TV or to buy tickets to go see in a stadium or arena. Seems that's how most Americans see it as we are one of the most obese nations in the world. There's the whole participatory aspect to it as well.

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

There is no "VALUE" created beyond the entertainment. It doesn't make our cars run cleaner, grow better crops or clean polluted water.

I know one sport shaping the future of the global automotive industry..Formula 1. Many of the advancements in that field of motorsports are being put back into our own cars for daily use. Making cars more aerodynamic, efficient, better handling, better stopping, more reliable, and the list goes on. Next season they're going to work on implementing KERS in the cars to further their efficiency. It's a CVT that engages during braking to capture extra kinetic energy to put it to use. Some neat stuff that will help to make cars run cleaner.

What made the world so polluted in the first place? Industry, cars, factories. Getting away from these and using alternative forms such as maybe walking or cycling or even skateboarding from here to there will help make us less reliant on cars.

Like others mentioned, I see FIRST on the same level as motorsports. The vehicle, or car is just the means for teaching. There's a lot that can be learnt from Rally racing, Formula 1, A1GP, Baja, etc.

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

FIRST creates value. FIRST makes society better through this collaboration between mentors and students.

The same could be argued about the YMCA, or club teams, or soccer teams. Working with the coaches, the students build a relationship and have a rolemodel. Sports were a big one during the a|n|t|i|d|r|u|g campaign. Students were doing something better and more beneficial during their time and were building character and value. They valued themselves and their teammates.

You might not all see sports the same way as I do, and we will all still have our own little disputes about different topics. Still seems pretty evenly divided (36-27) as to whether or not FIRST falls into the categories of Sport. I see it has the positive attributes of a sport, but won't be an olympic sport anytime soon. However though, it has been featured in ESPN.

[acdcfan259]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

"Sports" are nothing more than entertainment. There is no "VALUE" created beyond the entertainment. It doesn't make our cars run cleaner, grow better crops or clean polluted water.

Really? How many people show up to watch track meets that aren't family?

No value. I can say that I've learned more about myself from XC and Track than from robotics. While the community may not gain anything from sports, almost everyone who participates in a sport has a personal gain.

Sports weren't created for entertainment, they were created as a way to have fun, as a game. Even today you'll hear athletes say, "At the end of the day you just gotta go out there and have fun."

I have a feeling that most people on here haven't actually participated in a sport beyond little league. So we're getting a major bias. Until you actually participate in a sport in high school or wherever else, you don't really fully understand sports.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Michelle Celio

Try searching, there have been plenty of threads on this matter.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ighlight=SPort is one of them.

Actually no Michelle, that isn't what that thread is about. That is a different discussion weighing the pros and cons of FIRST's culture becoming sport-like. It's not a debate as to whether or not FIRST is a sport.

[EricH]

If ESPN shows it, it's a "sport", right? If so, poker is a sport (definition-wise, it's a game). FIRST beats poker at being a sport. (Not to mention that ESPN used to show FIRST championships, IIRC.)

Different people will see it different ways. I think it's a sport for the mind.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by EricH

Different people will see it different ways. I think it's a sport for the mind.

Interesting point.

As some pointed out, FIRST is being explained and marketed as a sport. There are a lot of aspects of it that are in-line with the definitions of sports (also outlined in other posts above). However, robotics is certainly not seen as a traditional sport.

My conclusion: yes, it is a sport, albeit a non-traditional one.

[Qbranch]

Robotics is not a sport, but then again I don't consider automobile racing a sport either.

HOWEVER, as others have stated, I'll chime in. FIRST is an awesome outlet for the competitive energies of kids who usually don't fit too well in other things, and sometimes end up barely if ever using their skills.

I only wish I'd known about FIRST my freshman year!

-q

[thehurd03]

in the end, everyone has there own opinions, even if Dean Kamen himself came out and said First is an official sport, people will still have their own thoughts, and ten years from now when First will be switched in for baseball as America's pass time, there will still be doubts as to if First is a sport.

[Kyle Love]

FIRST is NOT a sport. The most physically unfit person in the world could be awesome with FIRST.

Racing in most cases, can be considered a sport due to the extreme G forces placed on the body and the fitness required to be able to do what they have to do. Mainly, open wheeled cars require the driver to be fairly fit. NASCAR, not so much.

[acdcfan259]

Originally Posted by Kyle Love

FIRST is NOT a sport. The most physically unfit person in the world could be awesome with FIRST.

Racing in most cases, can be considered a sport due to the extreme G forces placed on the body and the fitness required to be able to do what they have to do. Mainly, open wheeled cars require the driver to be fairly fit. NASCAR, not so much.

NASCAR is not and never will be a sport. The best argument I've heard is that it's hot and really long. So are marathons but they're running the entire time instead of sitting there.

I agree with what Kyle said. FRC in it's current format isn't a sport because of the lack of physical exertion.

[thehurd03]

I'm going to try and make a Venn diagram in text, with instead of similarities in the middle the middle is first.

Chess is considered a Game and not a Sport, it is because,
1. It involves no more physical exertion than lifting a finger.
2. It is a competition for the mind.
3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

Baseball is considered a sport, this is because,
1.It involves a lot of physical exertion, when your not busy being a bench-warmer.
2. Joe Shmoe can't walk off the street and be good at it.
3. It is a game of entertainment.


First takes from the aspects of a game and a sport in a couple of ways,
1. You don't have to be super fit to be in first, but you can't be all flab either, sometimes depending on the machine your using you can "feel the burn".
2. First robotics competitions can be entertaining, but I know many people that come to learn more about robotics.
3. It draws from Chess in that it is a game for the mind.
4. It draws from baseball in that it takes a lot of training.

Now this might be a silly conclusion but it's a conclusion none-the-less.

I propose a hybrid. Since it is neither sport nor game but draws from both types of competition.

It's a Gorte

Or a half sport

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by thehurd03

I propose a hybrid. Since it is neither sport nor game but draws from both types of competition.

It's a Gorte

Or a half sport

That's another really good point. Obviously it doesn't match perfectly to either category, which is why we are debating it. Why force it into an existing category when it doesn't really fit in either. Let's make it its own classification, one that really fits. It's part game, part sport, but not really either.

[ComradeNikolai]

Originally Posted by thehurd03

3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

Wait, what?

You can teach me ALL the good techniques of chess in one hour? Really?

Chess takes YEARS of training to even get close to good. Most current masters (not even the grandmaster level; as low as 2200 USCF rating) have been playing since their early childhood and studying with grandmasters to get to a good level, and most people rated 1800 or above play for at least a couple of hours a day.

But I agree with the general idea here; chess is mental, not physical, and so is FIRST; not a sport.

[Andy Baker]

I'll vote for "not a sport".

Sport involves great things, and it also involves ugly things.

Both FIRST and organized sports teach lessons, provide opportunities, and are very enjoyable for participants. Each have benefits. I've learned many life lessons while being active in both. However, I choose now to be involved in FIRST instead of heavily involved in a sport because the impact of life changing lessons and development is significantly higher in FIRST (from my experience*).

I wish that FIRST did not try to market the robotics competitions as a sport. There are other ways to promote this wonderful program.

Andy B.

* - in my younger years, this includes many levels of competition, including college and semi-pro football

[m3ch4num470r]

Wiktionary:
sport (countable and uncountable; plural sports)

1. (countable) Any athletic activity that uses physical skills, often competitive.

Oxford English Dictionary Online:
sport

• noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others

Sorry, but by definition, not a sport. That's okay. We capture the best of sports and leave out the parts that aren't as good/useful/important.

Originally Posted by thehurd03

Chess is considered a Game and not a Sport, it is because,
1. It involves no more physical exertion than lifting a finger.
2. It is a competition for the mind.
3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

If you could teach all of chess in one hour, how come the best computers can be beaten by people with a lifetime of training? The truth is, Chess requires almost as much training as baseball.

A little off topic, but I couldn't let that go unchallenged.

[tennispro9911]

Some chess players train more than almost any athlete