New Control System How To

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I think it is time we start discussing some of the specs on the new control system. Since Beta teams are starting critical wiring by now and the wire strip specifications have changed from last year. According to the manufacturer, WACO, the teminal blocks on the Power Distro need to be stripped 13-14 mm or 1/2" to fully insert in the blocks. Do not tin the wire before insertion. The terminal needs the wire to form to the inside of the block for max current and lowest series resistance.
I will post links to the manufacturer's website soon. (after I get some work done for my paying job) Beta teams are asked to post here or ask questions of interest to all.

[R.C.]

Is there a gauge of wire that is recommended or do we have the choice between 10 and 12 gauge?

Thank you Beta testers.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Near as I can judge off the pictures, the 20/30 amp slots should accept up to AWG 10, and the 40 amp slots should accept up to AWG 6. Beta teams are welcome to correct me, and note that that's just physical capacity. Rules on what sizes are legal are up to FIRST, as always.

[PhilBot]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Beta teams are asked to post here or ask questions of interest to all.

Hi Al.

I'm a beta team tester, and long-time Chief Delphi lover, so don't take this post the wrong way.

As part of my team's responsibility to FIRST, (for letting us have the pleasure of debugging the new system), we're obligated to monitor and post information on the public Beta Test forum they've setup for centralizing information about the new system.

http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=743

This is an UNMODERATED forum, so there is no pre-vetting of informtion, and it's instant.. It's also open for anyone who registers.

This is also not an "exclusive" deal where we can't post elsewhere (quite the contrary). It just means that "in theory" this should be the best place to get factual information from teams and developers using the new controller.

Since we are in such a strong "learning mode" it's difficult for me to monitor multiple forums. I want to respond to as many questions as possible, and luckilly there don't seem to be so many right now ???. But any day now it's going to be insane.. I just know it.

So, politics aside, if you want to capture the attention of beta testers, you should definately (also?) post "new control system' questions to the FIRST forum...

Phil.

[PhilBot]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Near as I can judge off the pictures, the 20/30 amp slots should accept up to AWG 10, and the 40 amp slots should accept up to AWG 6. Beta teams are welcome to correct me, and note that that's just physical capacity. Rules on what sizes are legal are up to FIRST, as always.

According to the Power Distribution (PD) manual:

The "Main" breakers use WAGO 745-85X connecors, and the lower capacity breakers use WAGO 745-83X connectors

I assume the specs are online somewhere for these....

See my post about the FIRST Beta forum...

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by PhilBot

According to the Power Distribution (PD) manual:

The "Main" breakers use WAGO 745-85X connecors, and the lower capacity breakers use WAGO 745-83X connectors

I assume the specs are online somewhere for these....

See my post about the FIRST Beta forum...

Looks like I was dead on. Specs, such as can be had from WAGO:
745-831 (30A terminal blocks)
745-851 (40A terminal blocks)

[Joe Ross]

FIRST is working on a document specifically on how to use the WAGO connectors. I posted Al's suggestion about specifying the wire strip length, so it can get incorporated.

I also created a post on the FIRST forums that links back to this thread, so everything is "legal". http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...7600#post17600

[Miner]

As part of my team's responsibility to FIRST, (for letting us have the pleasure of debugging the new system), we're obligated to monitor and post information on the public Beta Test forum they've setup for centralizing information about the new system.

http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=743

Thanks for putting up this forum link. This will help a lot. Our team is having troubles getting started so I will be checking this out for info on the controll system. Thanks

[Greg Marra]

I feel like in many ways, the amount and format of information regarding the new controls system would be best captured in a Wiki, not a bunch of individual forum threads.

FIRSTWiki didn't seem to catch on the first time around, but maybe we can revive it with information about the new controls system? A page about each of the components, edited by people who know about them, would quickly result in a fairly comprehensive "how to" manual.

[vivek16]

One of our mentors got a job at Wago as the sales rep. for the midwest. I think he is working on getting discounts for teams in the midwest or something like that. I love their cage clamp technology!!

You will never have a loose wire again. The plastic with crack before the wire slips. I have abused these connectors in any way I can think of, the wire does not pull out if inserted properly.

Check out their Levernuts if you get a chance. They are like wirenuts but a lot easier to use(for me anyways) and more secure.

-Vivek

[BrentJ]

Originally Posted by vivek16

One of our mentors got a job at Wago as the sales rep. for the midwest. I think he is working on getting discounts for teams in the midwest or something like that. I love their cage clamp technology!!


-Vivek

I am new to FIRST so I may be misinterpreting the rules. But if your mentor gets the Midwest teams a discount on parts then those may become illegal if used on next year's robots.

I am sure someone more experienced will correct me if I am wrong. Also please don't take this personally as I am trying to learn how to interpret FIRST rules. I am basing my opinion on the 2008 Financial rules, I don't think 2009 rules will be much changed.

Just taking your statement at face value. Say the midwest teams are given a midwest only discount on Wago parts. If these parts are only used for pre-season training and not put on the 2009 robot not a problem.
But use them on the 2009 robot and they become illegal as other teams outside the Midwest can't buy these COTS at the same price. From reading of the rules if a COTS part can not be brought by all teams for the same price then it can't be used?

Am I reading the rules correctly?

[jgarski]

Depending on where you are located in the US, there are different contacts for Wago that you call call. As always, our website has most of the information you will need, but can be a bit difficult to navigate at times.
If you need anything and you are located in the Dakotas, MN, MO, KS, IA, NE, or AR you can e-mail me and I will get back to you. Sometimes it may take a day or two, but I'll try to be quick.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by BrentJ

I am sure someone more experienced will correct me if I am wrong. Also please don't take this personally as I am trying to learn how to interpret FIRST rules. I am basing my opinion on the 2008 Financial rules, I don't think 2009 rules will be much changed.

Just taking your statement at face value. Say the midwest teams are given a midwest only discount on Wago parts. If these parts are only used for pre-season training and not put on the 2009 robot not a problem.
But use them on the 2009 robot and they become illegal as other teams outside the Midwest can't buy these COTS at the same price. From reading of the rules if a COTS part can not be brought by all teams for the same price then it can't be used?

Am I reading the rules correctly?

Almost there. It is my understanding of the accounting rules, that any team can get anything allowed on your robot (material, component, etc..) for any price they can manage to get their hands on it for. (Free works best btw..lol)
But, for Bill Of Material purposes, all teams must account for COTS prices.(Re: Non-discounted prices).

For example, say I got a local metal distributor to give me 50% off for every metal piece my robot requires. (material).
I can jump for joy because I just saved my team 50% of the price & could potentially buy twice as much now with the money I had, but for legal competition documentation intents & purposes, I can not use more than the allowed cost of the robot in metal, or combined for everything used on the robot, & have to accurately account for the COTS price (Price of all that metal without a discount) in my BOM.

Bottom line is, that just because I can buy a bunch of metal for 50% off & you buy it at full price, I still have to account in my BOM the exact same price you do if we built the same exact robot with the same amount of metal. I can't build a robot twice the cost amount of you just because I got everything for 50% off.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by BrentJ

....
But use them on the 2009 robot and they become illegal as other teams outside the Midwest can't buy these COTS at the same price. From reading of the rules if a COTS part can not be brought by all teams for the same price then it can't be used?

Am I reading the rules correctly?

Close... Elgin has explained the cost accounting rule, above, but what you may be looking at regarding disallowing parts in "future years" has to do with the availability of the part... not the price of the part.

For instance under existing rules the gearbox from the 2006 and 2007 kit of parts (manufactured by IFI, if I recall) is no longer allowed to be used because it is no longer a COTS part.... you can't buy one at any price. That is why AndyMark keeps some of their older transmissions available for sale. You do, of course, have to price the part at the current COTS price.

Also if you modify or improve a COTS part in a given year, then it is no longer "COTS" and cannot be re-used in future years.

So long as the part were to remain available on a COTS basis, it could be re-used for many years... regardless of whether it was purchased at full-price, a discounted price or donated. But as soon as that specific part was no longer available on a COTS basis, then it would be disallowed.

Jason

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Greg Marra

I feel like in many ways, the amount and format of information regarding the new controls system would be best captured in a Wiki, not a bunch of individual forum threads.

FIRSTWiki didn't seem to catch on the first time around, but maybe we can revive it with information about the new controls system? A page about each of the components, edited by people who know about them, would quickly result in a fairly comprehensive "how to" manual.

Taking links to existing published FRC control system content (not just content on the Forums) and organizing them via a quickly editable website into categorized pages and (eventually) useful "how-to's" is exactly what I've been working on and maintaining since before the beta test teams were announced. Feel free to check out the following:

http://controlsystem.neofra.com/

Not exactly a Wiki, but it does the trick for me. FYI, this is built using Google Sites. I'm a web/HTML idiot yet managed to put together something that I feel is at least *somewhat* useful for team needs.