<R06> normal wear and tear

[Mr. Freeman]

Alright, yes, teams could, in theory, go drive their robots on the road outside their building to scuff up the wheels and call it "normal wear and tear". It's up the every team to follow the rules, there's a million ways around this rule and none fall anywhere under "gracious professionalism".

That said, does scuffing up the wheels actually help anything? Assuming the competition floor is completley flat (no gouges, grooves, etc.) then there would be nothing for the scuffs on the wheel to interlock with. Thus, all that could possibly propel the robot would be frictional forces, which are surface area independent (i.e. roughing up the wheels won't help.) Am I missing something?

[The Pre]

there was a short discussion by one of the "nerds" on our team who wanted to mount 4 wifi cards changing the band from broad to narrow to aim it at the wheels in effect heating them expanding the material just barely making it softer and grippier....


cause that would be legal....

i wouldn't be surprised to see lots of robots with black asphalt scuffed wheels...

i also wouldn't be surprised to see lots of robots forced to put on new wheels to get onto the playing field

[Team 2879]

Where could we buy spare wheels for the competition?

[jamie_1930]

You might be able to get a little more traction if you jerk the bot back and forth to accelerate wear and tear. At the beginning of the season I suggest running the bot on blocks and holding sand paper to it (as a joke we're not actually doing it).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Team 2879

Where could we buy spare wheels for the competition?

http://AndyMark.biz

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

You might be able to get a little more traction if you jerk the bot back and forth to accelerate wear and tear. At the beginning of the season I suggest running the bot on blocks and holding sand paper to it (as a joke we're not actually doing it).

You'll probably have to restore the tread surface if you do that.

[Urban Hawk]

what we are planning to do is get a second set of wheels and then use this "technique" to get some more friction on the wheels. that way if the wheels get rejected at the competition all we have to so is switch em out with the second set. If they don't then we can play with em. Thats the easiest way to figure out if it breaks a rule because in the end it comes down to the judges to determine if it does. And if you for some reason do get in trouble for the wheels during competition then it is the judges fault for letting you do it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

what we are planning to do is get a second set of wheels and then use this "technique" to get some more friction on the wheels. that way if the wheels get rejected at the competition all we have to so is switch em out with the second set. If they don't then we can play with em. Thats the easiest way to figure out if it breaks a rule because in the end it comes down to the judges to determine if it does. And if you for some reason do get in trouble for the wheels during competition then it is the judges fault for letting you do it.

I'm sorry, but this mindset is not a good one. It's NOT the judges' fault!

#1: Read the intent of <R06>, stated in the rule. What part of "out of the box" do you not understand? Also see Update #5.

#2: The judges do not determine compliance with the rules. The inspectors and refs do. The inspectors would keep you off the field.

#3: It isn't the inspectors and refs' fault if you do something illegal and they catch you, it's yours.

[Urban Hawk]

1) if you read it carefully it says "the intent of this rule"... that means that they are explaining the reasion behind the rule.... however they are not specificly saying that you can't since it isn't a direct order.

2)sorry.. i meant the inspectors...


3) it is their job to make sure that your robot meets the rules so if they allow it then that means you can't later get in trouble for it since they did let you compeate with them on and since you made no modifcations to them since they were last inspected. And as i said... you can always take em off and put the other set on if they don't meet standards.


p.s. the only thing on update 5 that has to do with wheels is how to repair damaged wheels.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

3) it is their job to make sure that your robot meets the rules so if they allow it then that means you can't later get in trouble for it since they did let you compeate with them on and since you made no modifcations to them since they were last inspected. And as i said... you can always take em off and put the other set on if they don't meet standards.

This is just plain not true. It is YOUR job to make sure your robot meets the rules. It is their job to check that your robot does indeed meet the rules before it is allowed to compete.

Intentionally modifying the rover wheels in any way in an effort to gain more traction (unless restoring the original surface increases traction) is explicitly against the rules. There is nothing gracious or professional about cheating with the hope of not getting caught.

Remember that when you post here you represent your team whether you like it or not. Any team at the Chesapeake Regional that has members on CD will now likely be keeping a close eye on your traction and will surely ask inspectors to examine your wheels if something seems amiss. If I were at that regional I would have to have a talk with some of your team members and mentors before I even thought about putting you on my selection list.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

3) it is their job to make sure that your robot meets the rules so if they allow it then that means you can't later get in trouble for it since they did let you compeate with them on and since you made no modifcations to them since they were last inspected. And as i said... you can always take em off and put the other set on if they don't meet standards.


p.s. the only thing on update 5 that has to do with wheels is how to repair damaged wheels.

I think I'll let some Championship inspectors deal with this one. You see, teams have competed in 1+ regionals, then gotten to the Championship and found that they were illegal. They made no modifications. Any questions?

And the reason I referenced Update #5 is precisely because it tells how to repair damaged wheels.

With regards to the intent of the rule, it says it in the rule, therefore it is either a) part of the rule or b) an explanatory note. If it is an explanatory note, then you may still want to pay attention. What part of a Supreme Court ruling gets the most attention? It's not the ruling itself, it's the reasons for the ruling.

[GaryVoshol]

<R08>: "The surface tread of the ROVER WHEELS may not be modified except through normal wear-and-tear."

What part of "may not" do you not understand?

Intentionally modifying the wheel and then trying to pass it off as "normal" is specifically against both the letter and spirit of the rule.

I agree with other posters, your comments have specifically set your team up as a target. You'd better have pristine condition wheels on your robot or someone will remember this and you'll fail inspection.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

The Team Update material gives teams who have unintentionally scuffed their wheels to return them to as near "out of the box" condition as possible. Checking the wheels for wear and any possible change in the coefficient of friction will be a line item on the Inspection Checklist. (Watch for it soon on a First website near you!) The inspectors are trained to look for certain anamolies that may give a team an advantage or cause playing field damage. Two methods are suggested in the team update to correct issues for teams that practice on surfaces other than the regolith. Inspectors and refs are charged with insuring each team plays with a robot that meets spec and all that that implies. There may be problems that the prescribed method cannot correct. Replacement may be the only option in those cases. Be prepared.
Inspectors meet on a phone conference each Monday night to discuss these and other issues and to try and make inspections uniform around the world. These conferences begin before the first event.

[ScottOliveira]

Originally Posted by EricH

With regards to the intent of the rule, it says it in the rule, therefore it is either a) part of the rule or b) an explanatory note. If it is an explanatory note, then you may still want to pay attention. What part of a Supreme Court ruling gets the most attention? It's not the ruling itself, it's the reasons for the ruling.

That is highly debatable. A lot of people don't care much about the explanation, only whether their side won or not. And people tend to forget the explanation, and only remember the actual ruling in the long run. Reasons are important primarily for people who have to use those rulings to make other decisions (lawyers, judges, politicians), as opposed to everyday people.

[Urban Hawk]

It's my job on the team to find ways around the rules (yet be within the rules) and im just doing my job, besides the fact i love a good debate; even if it on things that may never occur.

Gary...
in that section of the rule they key word is except. That means that you can't modify them UNLESS it is done through normal wear and tear. As long as it is done through the method which they stated it is then perfectly legal under that perticular rule. All we have do to is test our robot by driving it on something like asphalt and it will be legal. If it is too rough we can always sand it down to smooth it out a bit.

besides the fact that the ruling is also dependent on the fact of how much it is done on the wheel. We dont need to massacre the wheel to give it friction. As put by update #5 as long as the fingernail doesn't catch it's not too rough. That means we can add a slight amount of extra friction on each wheel (so that all to gether the friction will add up) yet still be in the rules. (thank you erich for pointing that out to me)
all that we need to do is create the smaller more microscopic scratches on it which will help create friction yet will pass inspection because they will be "close to their 'out of the box' condition." even sanding the wheels to try to smooth it out all the way will still always create scratches.



vike...
the inspectors job is to check and make sure your robot follows the rules (as i said before) yet they are also therefore representitives for FRC so what they say goes. Also as AL said "Checking the wheels for wear and any possible change in the coefficient of friction will be a line item on the Inspection Checklist." I already know that fact and that means that i am not planning on trying to get the wheels past them without examination or without their approval. I am counting on them doing it. I am planning to make it so that i can incresse friction for the wheels yet be within the rules so that for reasion it won't be cheating if i do it. If the inspectors let you perticipate with those wheels then for that specific competition you will be fine to use em untill you get another inspection. There they can redetermine if they are in compliance with the rules. However in these situations the worse they can do to you is make you change the wheels.
but as i said before i will make sure that the wheels are within rules so i won't have to worry about that.

although i will have to keep in mind what you said because i like your idea about restoring the original surface to increase traction. ill keep that in mind...it will be a great way to get it to as close as possible to out of the box yet incresse friction at the same time.





besides... if you do point us out ill be sure to have a fun debate with them over the rule.



p.s...this is a fun debate

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

All we have do to is test our robot by driving it on something like asphalt and it will be legal.

No - the "normal" part of "normal wear and tear" indicates that you are using the wheels in a normal way - "normal" for this year's game is pretty clearly defined as "driving the rover wheels on the regolith surface".

You really are making yourself look bad here, by obviously trying to find ways to cheat.