GDC you have failed us.

[AdamHeard]

swamp_child.

If you look back a few months in CD media, you'll find some pics of 973's KingKrab, and a linked youtube video. I'm not showing off, just establishing myself and my team now fully understand crabs, we have built a crab, and it's a good crab (I'd like to think).

Will we be using a crabdrive this year? Nope.

The crabdrive's advantage is largely negated by the trailer, you must not have seen a video of a skid-steer pulling a trailer, as it didn't look much different. A crab will be a little better at manuevering during initial turns I imagine, but not substantially better overall.

On top of that, A crab is substantially heavier than a skid-steer. Advanced Teams may be able to make a crab weigh as little as the average team's skid-steer, but not as light as a that same team could build a skid steer.

Not to mention the limits on ball pickup, the combination of the physical shape of crab modules, their mounting system, the bumper rules, and the size limitations will make a crab less than ideal for ball pickup.

And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong.

I agree with Adam.

Last year, I tried rewriting part of Section 8 to remove a circular definition. I had help, and I got the intended result. It took a while, though. I still think someone could find a loophole. This year, the GDC removed said circular definition with a single change that made it darn near bulletproof.

I will give you all a challenge if you are complaining about the GDC and their rules/rulings. Are you ready?

Design and submit a complete game, including at least an outline of sections 6, 7, and 8, to the "YOU design the 2010 Game!" thread(s) when those are released. You currently have about 4 months, if history is correct. I think that's about how long the GDC has to do more than that, once they really get down to work, but they have experience, so it's still pretty fair.

Try to include all the elements you can in your consideration: rookies, veterans, control system capabilities, fields, robots, etc. We'll leave out any restrictions that are outside of teams and FIRST's control. Good luck.

[dtengineering]

Every year we see posts like this in the first week saying how bad the game will be, or how unfair that rule will be... and then everyone goes out and has a good time.

Teams will note that it has been mentioned several times that a clean, waxed linoleum floor (gee... don't suppose there are any of those available in schools...) will be a quite suitable stand in for the playing field material.

Aside from that, you are right... the great teams in FRC will probably continue to be great teams. That is because they have great people who embrace the challenge rather than whine about it. And thank goodness there are powerhouse teams out there... they set a great example and inspire the rest of us to greater heights.

Jason

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong.

As a volunteer myself, I would never hold myself to a lower standard to someone doing paid work, nor would I expect other people to do so. Yes, the GDC does deserve a lot of praise for the unpaid work they have put into FIRST, and I have to admit that I have not been doing enough of that-there are a lot of things this game does very well. But there are some things that I, and other people, think it does not do well, and constructive criticism is always a positive. The GDC, to their credit, has always seemed quite open to it; I imagine they have more important things to do right now then to respond to all of the threads slamming them right now on these boards. Now, there are some people here that have gone a little bit beyond constructive criticism; the title of this thread, for example, strikes me as a little bit beyond the line. But as long as people stick to being constructive, I don't believe there's anything wrong with what they're doing.

(P.S.: I do, in fact, have some game ideas. I didn't post them because I didn't really come back to this board until the game hint... err... what's the opposite of exodus? Err, anyway, you get what I mean... but no, I don't think I could do better then the GDC! I would change a few things... >_>)

[Akash Rastogi]

Are you seriously kidding me?

This game, by far, is too leveled, if anything...but that's a story for another thread here.

[Jeff K.]

You can look at it however unleveled you want. A team has the capacity to use such and such over teams that don't have that capacity, etc etc etc. There is no way to truly make the playing field level unless they give you specific amounts of materials, and make you have to use those exact materials. Then everyone would complain about the GDC restricting us too much, which I believe happens to be another thread topic...

You can complain as much as you want, you may get a few game updates here and there, but all your complaining is wasting time you could spend designing or figuring out a way of solving the problem.

The thing about veteran teams having more knowledge. Many veteran teams are willing to share their past designs with other teams to help out rookies. If this is a reason for why teams don't perform well, how does this explain "the amazing phenomenon" of rookie teams outperforming veteran teams?

[waialua359]

I am not so sure the issue is about leveling the playing field, which is what this thread is about so far.
If anything, with a new control system and tougher constraints, the gap will widen with a few elite teams. I'd bet, this will be evident at CMP.

[synth3tk]

Just because a rookie team is a rookie to FRC, doesn't mean they may not know what to do. As stated by Billfred, a good amount of first-year teams have done very well.

A sigh of relief went through the room as we heard that these KOP wheels were mandatory. Everybody knows that this will "level the playing field", even if not completely.

In my honest opinion, a few of the previous games weren't really all that "difficult" to everybody. Sure, some teams had the time, resources, or creativity to do very well in the competition. But just because you were in the program since 1998 (I know it started in '92) doesn't mean that you're automatically a powerhouse team.

I agree with whomever stated that this time would be better spent developing a solution instead of complaining about the problem.

[waialua359]

Its 1992.

[synth3tk]

lol, That's besides my point, but thanks for the fact.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Its 1992.

Well then about 10 teams are at an advantage. ;P

[Pjohn1959]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true.

This might be a true statement if you are focused mainly on 'the game'.

I have seen more interaction between the students and mentors and engineers this year than in the past. There has been more mathmatical equations being put on our boards that I dare say being used in the math classes. Based on this, I would say that the GDC has hit a homerun with this years challenge. I think that this year's game will leave a defining moment on a lot of student's futures.

[Racer26]

Billfred also forgot to mention rookies like 254 and 2056, showing up and winning their first 6, and 4 regionals ever competed in, respectively.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true. While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.
As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year). Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams.
I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies.

I think you (and many others) are over-estimating the challenge. It seems from this post by Dave Lavery (a GDC member) it isn't terribly difficult to maneuver reasonably well on the surface. At first I too, thought they had broadened the gap. Now I'm pretty sure they've leveled the field more precisely than ever before.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I think you (and many others) are over-estimating the challenge. It seems from this post by Dave Lavery (a GDC member) it isn't terribly difficult to maneuver reasonably well on the surface. At first I too, thought they had broadened the gap. Now I'm pretty sure they've leveled the field more precisely than ever before.

I don't think a lot of people are criticizing the game simply because they think the robots are hard to control. I think people are saying that complex drivetrains may still grant an advantage, along with many other issues they have.