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Unread 08-01-2009, 10:58
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No-show teams and trailers

In the past, if a team, for whatever reason, could not bring their robot to a match, they could nonetheless send their drivers or human player and receive match points for that round. The same rule applies this year (section 9.3.6).
However, I have not seen any rules discussing what happens with the trailer if a team shows up but does not bring their robot. Does the trailer get placed on the field anyway?
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Unread 08-01-2009, 11:01
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

It would be nice if they had a set of acetol blocks to mount the trailer hitch to so that it is at proper orientation if they are going to leave it on the field. Plus this might help prevent the tongue from gouging into the floor.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 11:04
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

I think they will leave the trailer on the field, in all fairness to the game play from both sides. But what concerns me is the trailer tongue sticking out in midair and a robot running into it or over it and damaging their bot in the process.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 11:21
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Interesting... Could be a strategy, however I see it very unlikely. Maybe they would eliminate a trailor from the other team to compensate.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 11:25
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

This would give the "short" alliance an advantage - they have 3 goals on which to score, whereas the "full" alliance only has 2. I imagine the trailer will be a sitting duck for the match, which means a non-working robot is an absolute killer for the alliance.
I also expect Q&A clarification on this rule.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:09
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

I asked this on the Q&A last night.

IMHO, they will have to leave the trailers on the field. The definition of a "no-show" team in the rule book is one that has NO members of the team (including Payload Specialists) at the field. Therefore, a team that sends their PS out but no robot still gets the qualifying points, ranking points and win/loss from the match. If the trailers are removed, then the best robot is the one that doesn't show up for the match.

An example: Alliance A has the 3 best robots at the regional and are expecting an easy win. Alliance B had the three worst robots at the regional. Alliance B sends only their Payload Specialists out to the field. Therefore they all will get the points for the match, but because they don't send robots out, there are no trailers present for alliance A to score in. It is now impossible for alliance B to win. Alliance B can send balls flying with their human players, and out of 60 shots, only one has to go in to guarantee a win, because alliance A cannot score any points.

I also agree with IKE that they should have a jig to keep the trailer upright and from gouging the floor.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:09
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

At San Diego last year they asked a couple teams to step into unfilled matches, but did not count their score.

I imagine they'll ask teams to tow the trailer and work with the other robots for strategy, but not score.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:25
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Back-in-the-day (before the alliance era) FIRST provided a Placebo robot to fill no-show slots. The Placebo had no scoring capability, and fairly limited mobility. One such Placebo was actually a hovercraft, IIRC. I don't recall if there were others.

Perhaps FIRST should provide non-functional Placebo robots to stand in for no-shows in Lunacy. Placebos could be built using the AM C-Base chassis with no drivetrain, fitted with standard bumpers and trailer hitch, and ballasted to the maximum inspection weight. Trailers assigned to no-show teams would be hitched to Placebos instead.

Alternately, perhaps no-shows should simply be prohibited. Put another way, teams might be required to place a robot on the field and hitch it to a trailer, whether they think it can be competitive or not. A non-functional robot would behave much like the Placebo described above, and would save FIRST the cost of deploying and maintaining several for each event.
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Last edited by Richard Wallace : 08-01-2009 at 12:27.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:29
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Alternately, perhaps no-shows should simply be prohibited. Put another way, teams might be required to place a robot on the field and hitch it to a trailer, whether they think it can be competitive or not.
Except this would then remove the robot and 4 members of the team from the pit and the team would lose 20 - 30 minutes of build / rebuild time, possibly causing them to have a non-functioning robot for another, later match.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:40
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

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Originally Posted by Chris Fultz View Post
Except this would then remove the robot and 4 members of the team from the pit and the team would lose 20 - 30 minutes of build / rebuild time, possibly causing them to have a non-functioning robot for another, later match.
Fair comment, Chris. Time to build, improve, and/or repair robots is a precious resource.

How would you interpret <S04> in the case of no-shows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FRC Game Manual, Section 7
<S04> Permitted ROBOTS - Any ROBOT used during a MATCH must be in compliance with all Robot Rules (as defined in Chapter 8). Any ROBOT in violation of a Robot Rule will automatically be assigned a PENALTY and may receive a Yellow Card, depending on the severity of the infraction.
Should a no-show team's alliance partners be excused from the penalty required by this rule if the team says "our robot isn't ready so we won't compete"?
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:42
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Back-in-the-day (before the alliance era) FIRST provided a Placebo robot to fill no-show slots. The Placebo had no scoring capability, and fairly limited mobility. One such Placebo was actually a hovercraft, IIRC. I don't recall if there were others.

Perhaps FIRST should provide non-functional Placebo robots to stand in for no-shows in Lunacy. Placebos could be built using the AM C-Base chassis with no drivetrain, fitted with standard bumpers and trailer hitch, and ballasted to the maximum inspection weight. Trailers assigned to no-show teams would be hitched to Placebos instead.
I thought of this too, but it actually isn't a good idea. The former placebo was not allowed to affect the score of the match at all, and in this game it has to, by definition of the fact that it moves and therefore moves the goal. In a game where moving is key, a team with a robot that can't move or drive very well is then better off saying their robot is "broken" and having the placebo play instead.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:54
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

I really like the idea of just a kit frame with wheels, bumper, and a hitch. The weight value I see as negoitiable, but I really like the chassis idea.

I think we will have an extra kit frame this year. If FIRST can provide some wheels, I know we could donate a stationary bot.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 13:14
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

One thing that I do see, is that if FIRST did send a trailer out by itself, it's starting position is right in front of an opposing teams PS. As an insult to injury, that alliance could stock up on moon rocks in that PS position and at the start of the match have an easy shot to score points on the robotless trailer. I am intrigued to find out the ruling.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 13:14
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKE View Post
I really like the idea of just a kit frame with wheels, bumper, and a hitch. The weight value I see as negoitiable, but I really like the chassis idea.
Driven by randomly choosen adult mentors (who are not from any team in the match)! This would give me a chance to finally drive one of these things in a real match.

-Jim

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Unread 08-01-2009, 13:37
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Re: No-show teams and trailers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Starke View Post
One thing that I do see, is that if FIRST did send a trailer out by itself, it's starting position is right in front of an opposing teams PS. As an insult to injury, that alliance could stock up on moon rocks in that PS position and at the start of the match have an easy shot to score points on the robotless trailer. I am intrigued to find out the ruling.
I was thinking the same thing. However, if the red alliance had a dead trailer in front of the blue's fueling station, wouldn't that prevent the blue alliance from herding moon rocks to that player?

I can see robots trying to move the trailer out of the way, but I can see that as being hazardous to the field.

If they would force the team to an inoperable robot on the field, that could be even harder to remove from the fueling station.
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