Shooter vs Dumper Trade Study

[Creator Mat]

I don't think the dominate game plan this year in tele-operated mode is going to be getting balls and scoreing with your robot. I think the dominate strategy is going to be who can gather the most balls and hoard/ return the most to your teams throwers. I think this because it is going to be a lot easier (in my opinion) for your throwers to score then the robots. so where im going with this is a dumper with an effective ball gathering system is better. For the the purpose of less time standing at reloading station.

Pros: team throwers don't have to be as accurate and can rapid fire and a simpler robot (remember K.I.S.S.)

Cons: this is a maybe and don't quote me on this but somehow i heard that there is a rule that you can only put 1 ball at a time in the reloading station (i.e. no mass dumping of 10 balls at once) so this might rule out a dumper.

Food for thought

[thefro526]

From what I've seen, and I've watched quite a few matches, most of the Robot Scoring is done within 2 feet of the trailer. Essentially, all Robots whether they're "Shooters" or "Dumpers" are all playing the same game. Pin or impede your target and score on it.

I'd have to say that Powered Dumping is still the way to go. A Power Dumper has the ideal cross between Range and Qaunitity of Balls Delivered and that makes them deadly effective. Power Dumpers have shown that they don't have to rely on pinning as Much as An "Gravity" or "All or Nothing" Dumper because of the range that they have.

As far as Shooters go, they're all playing the Power Dumper game. I've yet to see a shooter that constantly scores from long range into a trailer. It seems like most of the get within a few feet of a robot or pin and robot and score. This has been very effective for teams that chose to adapt to this strategy but even then most Shooters (Robots like 1114 being the exception) just can't keep up with the raw amount of balls that a Powered Dumper or Gravity Dumper can deliver.

Then there are "Gravity" and "All Or Nothing" Dumpers. They're still holding their own but no one knows how much longer they can do it. Many teams are now getting to their second regional time and have all of the bugs worked out of their systems. The thing that saved many Gravity Dumpers in earlier weeks was the fact that they were more simple and easier to drive than a Shooter or Powered Dumper. Don't get me wrong, Gravity Dumpers will still have a very important role in this game, it just may change. On a final note, we've seen one "All or Nothing" Dumper do some amazing things, Check out 179 and 1345.. Those robots are possibly the epitome of the Unpowered Dumper.

So as we sit in Heading into Week Four, I'd Have to say Powered Dumpers are the most effective, Shooters are Working their way into the Game, and Gravity Dumpers are doing what they've always been doing - Being Reliable.

Then again, this is all just my opinion and what do I know?

[drueb12]

As a rookie team would it be smarter to dump rather than to shoot ? Especially if u are 2weeks into the competition and not started building.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by drueb12

Aa a rookie team would a rookie team would it be smarter to dump rather than to shoot ? Especially if u are 2weeks into the competition and not started building.

At this point, KISS wins. Dumper would be the way to go; you'll need to get enough speed on the balls to send them about 1-2 feet before they go below trailer level. Whether or not you do floor pickup, also allow for a floor release to feed the Payload Specialists.

[waialua359]

Whether shooter or dumper, a camera-tracking turret (or equivalent) is a MUST considering that no robot and/or target will be stationary for a long period of time. Drivers that have to "aim" will be too late when their robot has to do what they are thinking at that given moment in time.

Strategies that make the HP as the greatest offensive threat for an alliance seems interesting. I wonder if this will be the first time that a HP on an alliance will be a reliable force to reckon with??

[Norman J]

Originally Posted by RoboGeek99

I might forgotten something but after looking at all of these as unbiased as possible im leaning toward going with a shooter mechanism (thinking of a softball/tennis ball shooter powered by globes and an archimedes screw or conveyor system to get the balls in place)
Either way yall go good luck!

My team has a conveyor to a shooter and it works quite well, but at Kettering, I noticed that if a robot is pinned, a power dumper can drive right up and unload. Happened to us from 65.

But I have heard many people voice the theory that as the season progresses and driving improves, dumpers will be dodged more easily and we won't see any more 12-15 ball game changing dumps. Drivers should be experienced enough by then that they either won't get pinned or will be able to get out of one fast enough. In such a scenario, shooters will be able to easily compete with dumpers. I'm not sure about that, just repeating what I heard.

[BurtGummer]

After attending the LA regional this weekend, I saw both systems do great. I saw 1717 with their shooter, although they usually kept it within a 5 foot range. Their advantage was being able to aim however they wanted, so if they got pinned there were more possibilities for them to score on the pinning robot than if they were a dumper. Their distance was also easily controlled by retractable hood on the turret. Their drive system was also very nice, but I did not get to see what exactly it was. From a distant observation, it looked like each front wheel was steered like a car. I'm not sure about the rear wheels. Overall a very well built robot, and we had the pleasure of working with them and winning a round 88 to 6.

Team 399 was a dumper, and also did extremely well. Once they were filled, they could haul across the field and dump their whole load with ease. We were one of their victims, and we saw it coming before they even got to us, because they had an advantage on speed. Also another very well built robot.

So both designs worked well, although 'shooters' kept close ranges.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by BurtGummer

After attending the LA regional this weekend, I saw both systems do great. I saw 1717 with their shooter, although they usually kept it within a 5 foot range. Their advantage was being able to aim however they wanted, so if they got pinned there were more possibilities for them to score on the pinning robot than if they were a dumper. Their distance was also easily controlled by retractable hood on the turret. Their drive system was also very nice, but I did not get to see what exactly it was. From a distant observation, it looked like each front wheel was steered like a car. I'm not sure about the rear wheels. Overall a very well built robot, and we had the pleasure of working with them and winning a round 88 to 6.

Team 399 was a dumper, and also did extremely well. Once they were filled, they could haul across the field and dump their whole load with ease. We were one of their victims, and we saw it coming before they even got to us, because they had an advantage on speed. Also another very well built robot.

So both designs worked well, although 'shooters' kept close ranges.

207, 330, 399 and proved for me at LA nonturreting dumpers work great.

1717 and 1726 proved to me that "turreted dumpers" that can get balls out FAST at point blank, using the turret just to account for missalignment, have the potential to be amazing. They were less consistent than the simple dumpers as they require much more software, but when they shined they SHINED. Witnessing 1717 strafe sideways following a goal while they're turret was locked on to the target and filling it was the single most impressive sight I've seen this season.

[Spylake]

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I think the results favor the hybrid, short range volume shooters followed very closely by dumpers. A dumper's success turns out to be directly related to the speed of the dump mechanism. The fast dumpers like our alliance leader Team 179 Swamp Thing were very effective.

Overall, I think, the tracking long range shooters were the least effective. The challenge of tracking and ranging along with the required leading of a moving target is a daunting one.

It will be interesting to see if more software development before Atlanta will improve their performance substantially.

[kwojcik]

1717 Aux-pilot here. I'm very happy with the way that our turret played out, but our distance calculations were bogus the turret aiming was a little sketchy at times and I constantly had to be re-targeting vision targets even at point blank, sometimes resorting to complete manual mode.

We have left-right swerve drive, complimented with a very physics-based traction control system that we feel really gives us max power. I know the talk around LA was that you cannot get out of pins, but after retuning our traction control (we had brand new wheels, and they got worn in) in one of those championship matches we were able to vector out of a very very well placed pin using our traction control system in which the other robot actually hooked into our ball collector(not sure which team, but nice driving).

As far as shooting vs dumping, the lighting made distance shooting completely unreliable and we resorted to point-blank power dumps. Ideally, I feel like a very good shooting robot would dominate because they could avoid being caught in the chaos, but then again it would be hard to find a safe place to shoot from within the chaos

[jamie_1930]

I find that a shooter can easly work as a dumper as well by turning down the firing speed and increasing the loading speed so I would always prefer a shooter over a dumper. Also from seeing tuesday's matches dumpers can be ineffective if the trailer is not properley pinned.

[artdutra04]

It doesn't matter if you went with a shooter or a dumper. There will be successful teams from each camp.

The only thing that matters is having a better strategy than your opponent, by using your robots' strengths and zeroing in on your opponents' weaknesses.

[jamie_1930]

I will always prefer a shooter over a dumper.

[Oblarg]

Keep in mind, shooters don't always have to be shooting for trailers.

[kc2pix]

Our team has a powered dumper. It has a tray with a slanted bottom, (like paint roller tray shaped) and the back wall moves forward to launch the balls forward. We can launch several balls at a time, into a trailer that we don't need to be directly up against. The balls come up through a trap door in the front of the tray. The only problem we had was that balls kept falling over the edge.

We were very proud of our design.