Human players are costing points

[DavidB]

At Jersey there were a ton of human player penalties, most of them were from people ignorant of the rules. I am one of the two human players on my team and neither of us got a penalty.

Here are the main penalties I saw:

1. Tossing Empty cells - it has to go through the hole

2. When delivering Empty cell the human - Your hand can not enter the field
players hand went through the hole in anyway

3. Getting out of the chair before the match - you have to stay seated

4. Not using the tongs

5. The tongs extending on to the field - The tongs like your hands can
not enter the field


6. Tossing Super cells without empty cells - Need the empty cell

7. Tossing Super cells before last 20 seconds

8. Tossing wrong Super cell - You have to toss the super cell directly across -
from the empty cell you put on the rack
This is what I was told so I'm not sure how many
penalties occurred in regard to this, but double
check with your refs.

A lot of teams lost because of their human player. I saw close wins become huge defeats just because of penalties (sometimes as many as five penalties). So make sure you talk to your alliance partners because these penalties add up very fast.

DavidB

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by DavidB

5. The tongues extending on to the field

ouch!

Using the tongs wouldn't hurt so much, but they also can't extend onto the field, right?

(I'm sorry, I can't resist a good spelling error)

[DavidB]

Right, they can go under the lexan shield protecting the HP, but they can't extend through the opening that the robot pushes the balls through. I saw a team get a 10 point penalty because it extended less than an inch.

Haha yeah that is a pretty bad spelling error (slaps head). I guess I'm in need of sleep .

[Danny McC]

But on the FIRST Forums they said you could throw two balls at once. Unless I am mistaken and they did not say that.

[DavidB]

Hmm I don't know... from what I'm reading, the rules vary a bit from regional to regional.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DavidB

6. Throwing multiple balls - One at a time

This is not true. If this is being called at any future events without a Team Update I recommend teams bring the following Q&A to the attention of the Head Ref

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11772

9. Tossing wrong Super cell - You have to toss the super cell directly across from the empty cell you put on the rack

Unless someone can show me a rule or Q&A that says this I would dispute this with the Head Ref as well.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by DavidB

6. Throwing multiple balls - One at a time

I didn't find a rule against throwing multiple balls, can someone point it out to me?

[DavidB]

I don't think there is a rule against throwing multiple balls. It should be allowed but I heard of teams being penalized for it so I guess all the teams should have their Game manuals and team updates ready just in case.

[railerobotics]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I didn't find a rule against throwing multiple balls, can someone point it out to me?

Only thing possible for a ref to call a penalty is rule G40, and it does not state it one way or another.

But I thought that was what the First forum was for; clarifications so teams are penalized by the rules only, and they are not open to interpretation.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Unless someone can show me a rule or Q&A that says this I would dispute this with the Head Ref as well.

I would encourage this as well... and bring this Q&A with you. While it isn't a ruling on intent, it does say that the refs aren't supposed to give penalties that they can't back up with the rules.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Unless someone can show me a rule or Q&A that says this I would dispute this with the Head Ref as well.

This was explained at the Scrimmage before ship where they used the official FIRST field in CT.
I'll admit this came as a shock to me, but then again, I have not read every single Q&A question & answer on the subject of Super Cells.

Can someone find some hard evidence that this IS in fact a rule this year???

I'd like to see it in writing somewhere.
(Preferably somewhere else other than JUST the Q&A).

Edit: By the way, I only see a Q&A rule (with a quick search of the term Super Cell) on making sure the Empty Cell is used in the same Fueling Port area that the Payload Specialist is (limiting a Payload Specialist in that area to only use 2 Super Cells no matter how many Empty Cells get delivered) - but nothing mentioning taking it from the EXACT opposite peg hook.
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...ght=Super+Cell

Anyone care to clarify the rule that says it must be used from the exact opposite peg hook in that Fueling Station?
If nobody can find one by Tuesday night, I WILL be posting a question on the Q&A.

[Vikesrock]

Q&A would even be fine for me, but from my memory and a search of the Q&A there is no such post there and I also cannot find this in the rules.

I am totally fine with this being enforced this way IF they issue a Team Update or even a Q&A (but preferably an update) that clarifies that this is a rule punishable by penalty if violated.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

This was explained at the Scrimmage before ship where they used the official FIRST field in CT.
I'll admit this came as a shock to me, but then again, I have not read every single Q&A question & answer on the subject of Super Cells.

Can someone find some hard evidence that this IS in fact a rule this year???

I'd like to see it in writing somewhere.
(Preferably somewhere else other than JUST the Q&A).

There isn't any. Not Q&A, not Bill's Blog (not that that's official), not in any revision of the Manual that I've seen.

ONLY in the Kickoff video, and I think that was the animation. If it was even there.

The only place I can think of would be in the ref manual, or whatever their documentation of that sort is. Not being a ref, I don't have access to that, and a penalty of that nature should be in Section 7 of the Game Manual anyway.

And there certainly isn't a penalty called out, other than MAYBE egregious behavior (which is a card, not a penalty (<T05>)).

Has anyone asked Q&A?

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Q&A would even be fine for me, but from my memory and a search of the Q&A there is no such post there and I also cannot find this in the rules.
I am totally fine with this being enforced this way IF they issue a Team Update or even a Q&A (but preferably an update) that clarifies that this is a rule punishable by penalty if violated.

Originally Posted by EricH

There isn't any. Not Q&A, not Bill's Blog (not that that's official), not in any revision of the Manual that I've seen.
ONLY in the Kickoff video, and I think that was the animation. If it was even there.
The only place I can think of would be in the ref manual, or whatever their documentation of that sort is. Not being a ref, I don't have access to that, and a penalty of that nature should be in Section 7 of the Game Manual anyway.
And there certainly isn't a penalty called out, other than MAYBE egregious behavior (which is a card, not a penalty (<T05>)).

Has anyone asked Q&A?

::sigh:: lol
I didn't want to make this an issue, but if some competitions are enforcing this, & some aren't going to be because it's not written for teams & they are thus surprised by this penalty, then this is a bad situation.

I will get access to our team's Q&A Username & password & ask this there to be clarified.

I don't actually mind this being a penalty, but I would like to see this being stated officially somewhere - ya know?

If only it was myself who had missed it in the rules, I would think that's ok, & not a big deal, but if the majority of CD members thoughts here is that it is not in the rules, but is being penalized (which it has been at events I've been to since the Scrimmage before ship date) then I kinda have a big problem with that.

I shall report back to these forums when I get the answer!
Until then.

-E

Edit: I just submitted the question & am awaiting a reply.

[rcflyer620]

While I agree for the most part with what everyone has been saying about the penalties being almost exclusively with the human players, in our case it was our human player that saved our bacon more than once! He was absolutely beastly with the super cells! Part of our strategy was to collect the empties and deliver them to the air-lock. Because of our reversible conveyor that was pretty effective. It worked even better when an alliance partner could run a pick for us to keep us from getting our trailer filled while we did it.
The only thing I found strange was how many penalties were incurred for throwing an empty cell over the wall, even on experienced teams! I guess in the excitement they are just grabbing the wrong one.
The Robo-Lions will be "roaring" again at Chesapeake. See you there!