Kettering Results from Week 2

[Not2B]

Originally Posted by IKE

This format reinforces the need for a robust robot and prepared pit crew.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think that was a wakeup call for lots of teams.

It never occurred to me that the main auto mode for 90% of the teams would be FULL STEAM AHEAD into walls, robots, metal bars, etc... Glad we seem to be holding up without issues.

Hey - other Michigan teams yet to compete! Get ready for fast turn matches and robot beatings.

[Analog]

Originally Posted by RyanCesiel

2619 was a HUGE reason why our alliance won Kettering. Our drive team recognized their defense early and knew they'd be a great asset in the eliminations.

We were very fortunate to be the last team picked in the finals by 245 - so thanks for choosing us. As a 1982 graduate of Adams, I was so proud to be once again part of my old high school in some way! Your robot is both difficult to catch and can really dump a payload!

I tip my hat to the runner's up alliance - teams 2771 (great job on the video feed - had some friends watching at home), 65 and 2586.

Great job team 33 on the Chairman's award.

[Tom Line]

Things I liked about the regional:

The volunteers and staff there were personable, and very fun to work with. I asked for a trailer on the practice field and had one in 5 minutes. I can't say enough about the couple ladies running the field (I wish I knew their names).

The access to the field was great - both before and after each day's activities we were able to go out onto the field, get measurements, see how stuff worked. It was nice taking the non-drive guys out to see that, along with some of the mentors.

The Webcast was awesome (Code Red really outdid themselves at this regional!)

The cooperation between teams was great to see. It was also nice to have judges that were slightly more knowledgable about First Robots this year. We were able to have great conversations with them about the robots and even discuss what they'd done in past years. HUGE ++++. Having Joe Johnson come to our pits to discuss control systems was awesome too.

Things I did not like about the regional (and please forgive a bit of my emotion):

The seating needs to be improved. The people who could not find seats ended up standing in front of the people who had seats on the bleachers. Later, one of the (great) volunteers brought chairs over and MADE them sit down. It was nice to finally be able to see again.

The electrical situation was borderline ridiculous. This was the first district for many people. We arrived on time on Thursday, only to find out that the central sections of the pits did not have power. That situation continued for a full hour after the pits opened. After they finally got power up, the electrician came around and told us that we were not allowed to use any plug-in power tools, because extension cords were powering that portion of the pits (and this had evidently been the plan from the beginning of the event???). To top it off, the teams along the outside walls of the venue WERE allowed to use theirs. This was extremely frustrating.

The rules. I don't mean to sound sour-grapes-ish. -See later posts for clarification of what was here-

Other than that, I'd say the District went off very well. Good job done by all, and it was very fun to compete against all the other teams.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Things I liked about the regional:

...
The rules. I don't mean to sound sour-grapes-ish. But the rules need to be applied evenly between all teams. If one team has a DS fault in the eliminations rounds and is told they must replace it in 3 minutes, then the other team in the same match with DS issues shouldn't be given another 10 minutes to fix their problems (with no timeout taken). Especially when the result is the team that fixed their issue in the alloted time goes out with a mostly non-functioning robot due to wires they didn't have "time" to connect. I can easily chalk this up to the new event, new controls, etc. However, for FIM to be taken seriously, rules have to be applied evenly and fairly.

Other than that, I'd say the District went off very well. Good job done by all, and it was very fun to compete against all the other teams.

The RED alliance was not given more time than BLUE to get the DS problems fixed. (gotta love that DS :-/

The situation was that BLUE's DS went bad first - before the first elimination match began, the problem was diagnosed and the FTAs brought out the spare and helped them replace it. As soon as it was fixed, the RED blinker came on
because one of theirs went out. Same as for BLUE, the RED DS was replaced by a spare, only to find that it had not been flashed. The so called extra time was charged to the field (their bad for not having the second one already flashed) Turned out that both sides had the same amount of extra time to connect/reconnect their electronics. How was that unfair?

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

The RED alliance was not given more time than BLUE to get the DS problems fixed. (gotta love that DS :-/

The situation was that BLUE's DS went bad first - before the first elimination match began, the problem was diagnosed and the FTAs brought out the spare and helped them replace it. As soon as it was fixed, the RED blinker came on
because one of theirs went out. Same as for BLUE, the RED DS was replaced by a spare, only to find that it had not been flashed. The so called extra time was charged to the field (their bad for not having the second one already flashed) Turned out that both sides had the same amount of extra time to connect/reconnect their electronics. How was that unfair?

Well that certainly seems fair to me. In fact, they pulled our second DS back from us as we were installing it because they were worried that IT was not flashed either.

The way that is was communicated on the field was that they had some other issue, and they had to either call in another robot or go. That whole deal took about 10 minutes (finding of initial fault, Paul giving the field explanation, etc). If it was the field's fault the whole time, that's a whole different story. . As you said: You've got to love those DS's. I hope having two go bad in the same elim match is lighting a big red light for First.

Nice job to 245, 70, and 2619. You guys were great.

[HighLife]

I'd also like to acknowledge our great team mates 70 and 2619. 70 had a great auton and 2619 was a defensive wonder. I remember playing 2619 during the last qualification match of the day and they made me feel totally helpless as a driver.

Originally Posted by Tom Line

The way that is was communicated on the field was that they had some other issue, and they had to either call in another robot or go. That whole deal took about 10 minutes (finding of initial fault, Paul giving the field explanation, etc). If it was the field's fault the whole time, that's a whole different story. . As you said: You've got to love those DS's. I hope having two go bad in the same elim match is lighting a big red light for First.

Nice job to 245, 70, and 2619. You guys were great.

Tom I was the alliance captain and I was just as confused. The head ref came over and said you either use one of your cards or you run with a dead robot on the field. I told him we'd go with the dead robot option and I had no idea why they gave us so much time.

By the way some of the match videos are up!:
http://vimeo.com/channels/adambots#3531366

I've still got most of the HD videos to render though, so stay tuned.

[JNelson]

Code Red (2771) thanks our alliance partners, 65 and 2586. Your guys worked very hard and smart as our alliance climbed its way to the finals. It certainly was exciting, and we enjoyed every minute of working with such amazing teams. 2771 is also grateful for your help in getting our robot match-ready, after taking a beating in the intense qualifying rounds.

All the teams at Kettering were very supportive and encouraging to our team in the midst of the fierce competition. Our students and mentors are pretty well spent after two weeks of back-to-back events, and are grateful to all the teams at Kettering for the support. It was an honor to be at a competition with so many strong teams there.

We give hearty congratulations to 245, 70, and 2619 for becoming District Champions. You guys set pretty high standards both on and off the field. We are thrilled for our friends at 2619, who have a great 'bot and a great team.

Thanks for the cheers and the high-fives, 107 and 49. It means a lot to our students to get encouragement like that.

Killer Bees, congratulations on winning the Chairman's Award. We dream of some day being half as good as you are!

Our next step is the West Michigan District at GVSU, so we'll see many of you there.

Good luck everyone!

[Tom Line]

As a follow up to my first post:

On the practice field, there was a single 110 extension cord and no splitter. So only one team could use the field at a time (no DS power) until we supplied our own 4 way splitter for people to use. Might want to consider a powerstrip there fastened to the extension cord so people can utilize the field a bit more.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

As a follow up to my first post:

On the practice field, there was a single 110 extension cord and no splitter. So only one team could use the field at a time (no DS power) until we supplied our own 4 way splitter for people to use. Might want to consider a powerstrip there fastened to the extension cord so people can utilize the field a bit more.

We are going to fix that by bringing our test battery and an inverter with our robot cart.

Also the Allen Bradley yellow light does not allow spectators to know which color (side red or blue) the robots are on. VERy hard to keep them straight when viewing. Even worse trying to sort it out on the webcast.

Props to the Safety glasses people. #1 best effort ever I have seen in First in % years of going to competitions. Should be a model for all other first competitions.

Props to teams 1025 and 910 great alliance partners

noise in arena areas=.failCurrent Path: /

- by the end of friday the music, announcer, and pit announcer were very loud and made communication very difficult in pits. ( SAFETY hazard).
- speakers for pits should be on stands on ground, with treble normalized for surroundings This allows the voice to travel over the heads of people in pits. Teh sound was bouncing off floor and cieling and back further making hearing in pits almost impossibe. To note is as volume rises so do peoples voices etc further leading to louder everything.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Also the Allen Bradley yellow light does not allow spectators to know which color (side red or blue) the robots are on. VERy hard to keep them straight when viewing. Even worse trying to sort it out on the webcast.

Slightly off-topic, but that's what the trailer is for. Look at the color of the bumpers on the trailer to identify which alliance a robot is on.

[johnr]

I agree with what Ike said, just alittle more seating , but that screen by the tables was a nice touch. Something a team might be able to provide next year would be a shuttle service from the far parking lot. That was a long walk for grandparents in the rain. Oh,and maybe we could add a rule that you are not allowed to wear any tennis shoes that require everyone else to wear sunglasses.

[Joe J.]

This was a really great event, it had a very comfortable "feel" to it.

Thanks to 33 and 548 for joining our alliance it was great playing with you! You both have awesome machines & great drive teams!


A few concerns: The seating (seemed pretty crowed) I didn't spend a lot of time in the stands though.

The awards just didn't seem as "formal" if that makes scene. Maybe they felt rushed, our the music seemed a weird fit for the ceremony. Not sure just felt weird.

[Ken Patton]

Originally Posted by IKE

I would appreciate it if folks took the time to add both positives and negatives that way the "right things" get continued, and the "Wrong things" get addressed. I use the word addressed, because what 1 person sees as a wrong thing, many others may not.

Apologies in advance for such a long post...

Over the last two weeks I had the chance to attend the Midwest Regional as an inspector, and then the Kettering District as a competitor. I don't think any of these comments will be a surprise to the FiM people - you have heard them in private and in public at various times.

First, the core volunteers who are making the 2009 Michigan District system happen deserve many many thanks for working so hard on making sure the events run. The relatively small number of people who spent so much time interacting with and helping the teams solve technical issues at Kettering deserve gold medals.

The amount of money we are saving this year by going to nearby district events, and not staying in any hotels, and replacing nicer team dinners with pizza while still at the venue, is a lot. If ever there was a year to save money, this is it. It makes the activity a little less big-time, but I think we would have had to make such sacrifices anyway in this year of financial challenges.

The increased number of matches is great. It makes you realize how important a robust robot and an easy-to-update control system are. Friday and Saturday were non-stop and long.

So far, the "coverage" of the district system has been limited. We need some actual objective evaluation of it. I don't know what FIRST-Manchester's evaluation plan is, but I worry that there is not enough objective evaluation - there is a lot of repeating of talking points, and some avoidance of the negative issues. The talking points are: 1) I worked a full day at work on Thursday, 2)more plays, less money, 3)the event went great, 4)no shipping. But it would be nice to get some more objective statistics and details.

Some possible statistics would be 1)does a 2-day district + Thurs night practice + 8-hour Access Period take more time away from work/family than a 3-day regional? 2)how many people attended vs a regional? 3)could they see/hear the action? 4)did they have seats? 5)Was press coverage better? 6)what are the no-show robot statistics? 7)were field issues similar to the non FiM events? 8)was tech support from FIRST/NI/FMS sufficient? 9)How did the self-shipping work out? (It is NOT being suggested these are all problems - but these are useful fact- and data-based criteria for an objective evaluation).

While it is difficult to be objective about the "feel" of the event, my opinion is that the Kettering event was like an FRC off-season event. Someone likened it to an FLL event, but it did not have the same "show" quality of the FLL State Championship that I have been judging at for the last several years. I saw some video from the Traverse City event, and that did not look as good as Kettering. Does anyone disagree that the District system has replaced the "arena show" with a "gym event"?

The compressed schedule makes the show a little less impressive. Because teams have less time to get up and running at the event, and because for many it will be the first time they are on a real competition field with game conditions, some of the learning curve happens during matches instead of during practice. Are there any statistics capturing how many teams used matches (instead of practice) as their "get it running" learning curve? For example, what are the FRC vs. FiM statistics on how many teams were running an autonomous mode in their first couple of Q-matches as compared to their last couple of Q-matches? You would think that this might be a positive statistic for the "more plays" concept. It could also be a negative statistic showing that teams needed the practice session.

Speaking of practice, is there any data on how many teams took advantage of the open practice sessions on Thursday night and Friday morning? Was there enough time to cycle all teams through a practice (assuming they were ready, which they should be at later events)? My impression was that many teams who needed the practice were not yet ready, and that open practice time was being used by the "prepared" teams. It would be interesting to see data on who got stick time on the field during practice.

Is the compressed schedule the reason why there were no awards on Friday, and why only 7 students per team can go up to receive awards on Sat? I think anything that gets the students up in front of a cheering crowd to receive an award they won is worth the time. I understand that we cant do that in Atlanta, where there are many thousand people, but it seems like we could/should do it at a district/regional.

Do the non-Michigan teams know that we get to bypass the 40 lb withholding allowance for parts made during the 8 hour robot access period?

Were the rules being applied consistently? I have two issues which I think are big ones:

(1) I walked into the building Saturday at a couple of minutes past 7AM. There were dozens of people in the pits, and some teams were working on their robots. I do not know how long they had been in there, and I did not see any officials (safety, inspection, etc.) monitoring any of this. The agenda indicated pit opening time was 7:30 AM.

When I asked one of the key volunteers what was going on with teams in the pits so early, he said that one of the FiM officials told him "this is the new FIRST." When I then went to that specific FiM official and asked him about teams in the pits early, he told me that it was important that people didn't have to wait outside in the cold. Huh? This is disingenuous. We were talking about people in the pits, and it was unseasonably warm outside.

It is things like this that have made me wonder about the management of FiM, when we hear different answers at different times, depending on who is listening.

(2) This issue was already raised by another competitor, but I think there was at least the appearance of favoritism on the playing field. A team had a DS problem at the very beginning of eliminations, and it was announced that it was a DS problem (a team problem) as opposed to a field problem. Several minutes went by while this problem was being worked on and eventually resolved. No timeout was taken. In the finals, this same team had a problem at the beginning of match1, and at that time a timeout was taken. An extension cord was run out onto the field from under the scorer's table in order to allow the team to power up their DS so they could run a motor on their robot. I thought this was going too far.

In summary, I am thankful for the cost savings, but worried that the so-called "new FIRST" is diverging from "old FIRST" in an unsupervised fashion that may not be following the rules/guidelines/philosophy of FIRST. I think more should be done to maintain consistency and transparency.

Respectfully submitted,
Ken

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

...is there any data on...

I'd be EXTREMELY interested to see any data of this type. Quantitative comparisons of the "new FIRST" vs the "old FIRST" interest me significantly more than opinions like "Dude, the event ran great!".

If none of this data exists, that would cause me to question exactly who is evaluating FiM, and how they are doing it. After all, that is the answer we were given when this program was leaked/announced: "This is an evaluation". I seem to remember one of the concerns voiced back then was that this would be a sham evaluation and the program would be declared a success regardless of what happens.

No Data = No Due Diligence?

-John

[Herodotus]

John and Ken, I think you both have valid points about data, and I would also like to see data of this type being released by FiM. However, I'd also say that simply how the teams felt about the competition is as important, as well as how inspired the students were. It's hard to objectively measure satisfaction and inspiration.

The two most important competitions to watch in regards to collecting data and making comparisons will be Detroit and West Michigan. These two events are still being held at the same venue, as far as I know, so you can make a comparison between new and old FIRST while maintaining the venue as a constant.