Starting a Mostly student run FRC team

[Jmasta]

Ok, so my coach of the passed 3 FRC seasons is deciding he doesnt want to compete in next years FRC, but me and a couple of veterans are thinking that we should attempt to start our own team, One of our veterans graduates this year and could handle the Coaching stuff, but how hard do you think it would be to start an FRC team which is basically, entirely student run?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Jmasta

how hard do you think it would be to start an FRC team which is basically, entirely student run?

Very.

[Herodotus]

If your mentor doesn't want to compete in FRC next year can't you continue to run your current team instead of starting a whole new one? That would be significantly easier, especially if you keep your ties to your sponsor. Speaking of which, I would suggest you go to your sponsor (or a new sponsor) for mentoring. See if they would be willing to have anyone come help. I'd say you will be missing out on half the point by not having an engineering mentor, but really that's the whole point of this FRC thing we're doing.

[Akash Rastogi]

Guess the above post sums it up. But why can't you continue to run your current team? All you need is a school advisor or parent for like supervision. Even if a team is almost fully student run, its super tough to do (trust me, MORT has done it before). We've tried it before and tried to become pretty autocratic, but it leads to disorganization no matter how great the students are, there are just some things you need teachers and parents for.

Remember, this is coming from a team that has been "mostly student run" for the past 13 years, its tough and I don't recommend it. Get adults (teachers, parents, engineers, mentors) and continue your current team. Take this advice please, it'll help prevent a lot of stupid little problems. Working with other students on a student run team gets frustrating without and adult to help keep your heads on straight.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Remember, this is coming from a team that has been "mostly student run" for the past 13 years, its tough and I don't recommend it. Get adults (teachers, parents, engineers, mentors) and continue your current team. Take this advice please, it'll help prevent a lot of stupid little problems. Working with other students on a student run team gets frustrating without and adult to help keep your heads on straight.

I entirely disagree. Team 1923 has been ENTIRELY student run (in fact, entirely run by only myself) for four years, and so far I'm pretty proud of where we are.

We build in a student's garage, and we raise all our own money through our school district's education foundation. The key is to have support from a core group of parents. Our team parents aren't technically minded at all, nor do they act as anything more that supervision.

I, as a student, have done everthing that a mentor should be doing (i.e. TIMS management, booking travel, keeping students in line and organized for meetings and at events...the list goes on) on my own for the past four years.

Yes, it's hard, but it's completely worth it.

I'm not going to write out my team's life story, but if you want to know more, PM me or drop me a line on AIM or gmail, my contact info is in my signature.

[merybar]

Originally Posted by Libby K

I entirely disagree. Team 1923 has been ENTIRELY student run (in fact, entirely run by only myself) for four years, and so far I'm pretty proud of where we are.

We build in a student's garage, and we raise all our own money through our school district's education foundation. The key is to have support from a core group of parents. Our team parents aren't technically minded at all, nor do they act as anything more that supervision.

I, as a student, have done everthing that a mentor should be doing (i.e. TIMS management, booking travel, keeping students in line and organized for meetings and at events...the list goes on) on my own for the past four years.

Yes, it's hard, but it's completely worth it.

I'm not going to write out my team's life story, but if you want to know more, PM me or drop me a line on AIM or gmail, my contact info is in my signature.

I play this same role on my team so i can defiantly vouch for what you are saying, it is hard however it defiantly pays off. Two years ago our coach moved onto medical school, i ran our team last year fully and this year i am working on getting the new coach up to speed. I planned our trip to the championship along with managing TIMS, fundrasing and the other aspects of FIRST. It is a lot of fun, hard but has taught me a lot.

[EricH]

What I'm going to say is simple:

While there are teams that can be successfully student-run (see Libby's post), they are the exception, rather than the rule.

What's going to happen when Libby graduates at the end of this year? It's almost certain that her team will continue, if they have someone to take charge. But if nobody steps up, then the team will fold. And many high school students wait for somebody else to step up.

You almost have to have an adult who can continue the team while student leadership transfers over. The adult is not necessarily a team leader; rather, they are the last in the line of succession, but have to know the most in case the entire line goes down. Or you can do like merybar's team is doing: rotating coaches. One runs the team, but has to step down, so a student steps up and runs the team until a new coach arrives.

Your situation, as best as I can understand it, is: Your adviser is stepping down after three years. Your team is for some reason changing schools. (I don't know how that works, but please don't post it in this thread. If it's something important for us to know, PMs or FAHA is probably better, or I miss my guess.) You want to start a new (rookie) team at the new school. Your current team has one sponsor (who you evidently don't care for). Am I correct so far?

First, if at least 5 students are going with, you're not a rookie. That's how FIRST chooses to define it. So you may as well keep your current number if you can, even if you do transfer over.

Second, you really want at least one adult. I'm not talking one fresh out of high school, I'm talking one that's a little older and more mature. Said adult would, under this system, mainly be the accountant/order keeper, in effect.

Third, why on earth do you want to start completely from scratch? That's not a good idea! I was talking with another FIRSTer today over lunch about logistics of starting a team. You're talking fundraising at least $10K, per year. And you only have students doing that? If I'm a company that's looking to sponsor one student engineering team, in any high school or college event, which am I going to choose of the following?

• A group of high school students with little to no adult supervision, asking for $10,000
• A second group of high school students, with plenty of involved adults, asking for the same $10,000 or as much as I choose to give
• A group of college students, affiliated with a known organization and a known school, asking for whatever I choose to give?

I can tell you right now, it won't be the first one unless there's a really good reason not to fund the others. That's what you're going to look like to the companies. And especially if you have the attitude of "oh, it's only one sponsor, so it doesn't matter." Means you're going to have to fundraise awfully hard...

And if there is a tie between two of the first type of group, I'll take the one that has a history first. So the rookie will be left out in the cold.

Realistically, you want to keep your number if you can. And you want to get an adult or two. Especially, engineering types who know when to keep themselves out of a job the students are doing. See Dave's Kickoff comments from the last two years.

In short, my advice is, don't go the way I think you're looking to go, and keep what you can. Unless, of course, you hate yourself.

(Sorry, "if you hate yourself" is what my Intro to Solid Mechanics prof says if he's warning us against the hard way of doing something. It's rubbed off on me a bit...)

[Molten]

Originally Posted by EricH

You're talking fundraising at least $10K, per year.

Ok, I know I've debated this point with you before Eric so I'm not going to do it again. I just want to state that it is quite possible for a team to be ran on much less then $10K per year. Sure, you may not be as big or famous as 330, but you will still get relatively the same experience.

And no, I'm not saying that 330 is buying fame or any other ludicrous comment that may be misconstrued from the above statement.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Molten

Ok, I know I've debated this point with you before Eric so I'm not going to do it again. I just want to state that it is quite possible for a team to be ran on much less then $10K per year. Sure, you may not be as big or famous as 330, but you will still get relatively the same experience.

And no, I'm not saying that 330 is buying fame or any other ludicrous comment that may be misconstrued from the above statement.

For an FRC team based at the location being discussed at the time (which is a ways from the nearest regional), you need at least $1K for hotel, unless you get a really good rate, plus $6K entry, plus bus rental for Wednesday night through Sunday AM (may be negotiable), plus your parts and tools. Figure $10K to cover all of it. We were also discussing VRC/FTC/FRC comparison in costs, which tends to make you like round numbers.

Possible? Yes, GIVEN that you are close enough to not stay in a hotel at your one regional and given that you stick with a kit frame, you could do it with $6K-$7K. If either is not true, then $10K is a much better estimate. It's also a nice round number, which makes it nice for calculations.

And I will thank you to retract your statement that 330 is a big team. They aren't. 15 students, or less. During my years on the team, 10 was pretty standard.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by EricH

And I will thank you to retract your statement that 330 is a big team. They aren't. 15 students, or less. During my years on the team, 10 was pretty standard.

Consider that part retracted. Though, in number of students it is small. But the name is big. It may just be that your bot is awesome this year, or that your team does a ton with community, or something completely different...but I've sure heard 330/Beachbots a lot this year. I really meant know offense in my words earlier.

Also, I would agree with the 6K-7K estimate to being more reasonable. Though, this can be done without a kitbot frame. Just depends on if you already have most of the tools.(or access to them) I think that most of the tools you will need for building a bot are pretty available be it through a school or a company. I'm sure someone will let you use their tools if you explain everything.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Yes, it's hard.

Originally Posted by merybar

it is hard

That's kinda what I'm trying to prevent though...You don't have to make things harder for yourself, I'm just trying to make it easier.

Working hard and it still being worth it is one thing, but that doesn't mean something that isn't as hard (by involving teachers and parents) is not worth it. If you are able to get the help that you deserve then why not take advantage of it rather than struggling? And as Eric said, and I can vouch that neoshaakti feels the same way*, students move on and without a solid foundation of adults (even parents), a team cannot last as long as it could with those parents. I appluad your team Libby for taking charge of your team, however.

I know where you are coming from though.

*2554 is going through this right now

Students are seriously like variables when it comes to running a team, you need the constant of adult mentors or parents.

[Libby K]

I have to make a few additions to my post.

Yes, it is MUCH easier to have an adult. I'm thankful for our mentors this year, and they've truly transformed the team.

What I was trying to get at is that it IS possible to keep the team going without your former coach. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to look for local support elsewhere. I apologize if my comments made it seem like anything else. I was just trying to say it can be done.

EricH makes a good point:

Originally Posted by EricH

You almost have to have an adult who can continue the team while student leadership transfers over. The adult is not necessarily a team leader; rather, they are the last in the line of succession, but have to know the most in case the entire line goes down. Or you can do like merybar's team is doing: rotating coaches. One runs the team, but has to step down, so a student steps up and runs the team until a new coach arrives.

That is what we are currently trying to do as well. I think I jumped the gun a little in posting my original thoughts- and I apologize for doing so.

The way I understand it is that you're looking for a new team, since the teacher from your school isn't interested in working with the FIRST program. Have you tried other teachers? Even if they aren't a math or science teacher, if they are able to be the figure-head adult to keep the team affiliated with the school, it's a start.

[neoshaakti]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

That's kinda what I'm trying to prevent though...You don't have to make things harder for yourself, I'm just trying to make it easier.

Working hard and it still being worth it is one thing, but that doesn't mean something that isn't as hard (by involving teachers and parents) is not worth it. If you are able to get the help that you deserve then why not take advantage of it rather than struggling? And as Eric said, and I can vouch that neoshaakti feels the same way*, students move on and without a solid foundation of adults (even parents), a team cannot last as long as it could with those parents. I appluad your team Libby for taking charge of your team, however.

I know where you are coming from though.

*2554 is going through this right now

Students are seriously like variables when it comes to running a team, you need the constant of adult mentors or parents.

Yeah Stogi is right here. Students come and go, but mentors can be there forever. Look at some of the sports teams in your school...how many times does your school get a new tennis coach?

And yeah, I have been in a similar position where I managed TIMS, wrote the NASA grant, marketed/ fundraised, wrote sponsorship letters using the voice of my coach, etc etc
Transitioning power is proving to be difficult, because like Eric said...what happens when that one kid who plays coach leaves?

I think you'll be fine, right now you might be freaking out a little and thinking that hitting the reset button is your best option.

I think that some compelling opinions have been stated. Look into your other options man...for your sake

Worst come to worst, go to your guidance counselor haha
(not a bad idea actually)

-Neel

[neoshaakti]

Originally Posted by Jmasta

Ok, so my coach of the passed 3 FRC seasons is deciding he doesnt want to compete in next years FRC, but me and a couple of veterans are thinking that we should attempt to start our own team, One of our veterans graduates this year and could handle the Coaching stuff, but how hard do you think it would be to start an FRC team which is basically, entirely student run?

Are you based out of a public school? If so, is your coach a teacher/club adviser? If so, one problem I see with a completely student-run team is the financial aspect. Usually, Board of Education's establish their own accounts for clubs that are only accessible by a teacher/club adviser. Also, does your team use your school's 401(c)3 tax ID number to get donations/sponsorships? If so, I do not know how liberal your school board will be in allowing you to continue use of their number.

If you are based in a school, is there any way you can find another teacher? Have you considered approaching your school's administration (Principal, Vice Principal, etc.)? What about the Student Activities Director (the person who oversees all clubs)?

If you are not based out of a school, like mentioned before, try to find a mentor from one of your sponsors.

Parents are usually a great source for supervision (it's inherent in their nature). If parents of team members really believe in the team, and in FIRST, I'm sure they wouldnt mind coming together and filling in for an absent coach.

Lastly, try professional organizations in your area. I know that the ASME's website has a specific link where you can inquire for volunteers for a FIRST team.
While you are on that track, try contacting your local branch of the IEEE(which has a Robotics and Automation Chapter), AIAA, NSPE, etc.

Lastly, if you still have a void in the coach's position, consider creating a stipend/ an incentive for a coach. I'm not an accountant, so I don't know the specifics, but in some states volunteers can get reimbursed for gas and other things. That maybe a way to bring in volunteers.

Anyways, hope I helped, good luck!

-Neel

[GillSt.Bernards]

It is very tough and you really need someone from the school who is organized. I am running my second year team and we do have a faculty advisor but she does not do anything it is very tough to do. If you are running a student run team make sure it is resonably sized team because you are going to need all the people you have.

Also from a legal standpoint you need a faculty advisor. One thing when trying to find the perfect faculty advisor is to look for someone organized. We had a faculty advisor who had no idea what she was doing and she was disorganized and at points it was becomming dangerous. Advertise your team in the school and get the support of the principle it will be much easier to find someone to help you. We are in a similer point where our faculty advisor was fired.