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View Poll Results: Do you think qualified teams for nationals should partipate in Regionals?
Yes 67 89.33%
No 1 1.33%
They can not participate in the playoffs 7 9.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 13:15
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Quote:
Originally posted by nick reynolds
5. If FIRST has grown beyond the capacity of Disney then rather than change the format and make teams suffer maybe we should look at a new venue. If this became an option you can bet your speed controlers that Disney would have a change of heart.
Nick237
I wholeheartedly agree. A few of us have been harping on this for a couple of years. At this summer's FIRST Forum, they finally let us discuss other Championship venues for the first time in 3 years.

Disney is overrated, overpriced, and overemphasized. FIRST can survive and thrive without Disney, in my opinion.

And another thing... that "It's a Small World" song really gets on my nerves.

Andy B.
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 13:25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nick reynolds
Should we express our concerns and post problems that we see or should we just keep silent. Do we have the right to give opinions or are positive posts the only exceptable forms of comunications between team members.
Nick237
I know that Soukup responded to this comment, and his sentiments are pretty close to my own, but I want to add one thing:

Of course everyone has the right to give their opinion here, but they also have the responsibility to express their opinion as exactly that, their opinion. When an opinion (on either side of any issue) is expressed as a fact rather than an opinion, I think that it is much more likely that argument rather than discussion will ensue.

As far as I know, the truth is that we do not know exactly how FIRST is going to handle some of the problems that will crop up this year becasue of the rule changes, and we do not know how teams will respond in competition when faced with the added pressure of having to qualify for Nationals. This is disconcerting, but we have to deal with it. Maybe if we all concentrate a bit more on what is fact and what is opinion, we can do that with a little bit less discord than we have seen so far.

P.J.
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Unread 24-10-2001, 14:33
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Andy, its true for many teams, and if you look at our regional in CT you will see its on the 6th of april. The Nationals is on the 25th thats 19 days later.
In that amount of time including the sunday after the regional and the Wednesday that we arrive in Florida we would have to collect $30.000 or more from sponsors and book airline tickets, and reserve rooms in Disney. All the Adults who would be with the students would then have to upheave all the places where they work so they could get the time off to go.
I dont know your situation at work but many Adults and Parents who would normaly go to Florida with the team requier more than "19 DAYS" to make this happen. Last year we fund raised the whole year, we did Tag sales, Can and Bottle drives, Bulbs, calenders, Raffles and a whole lot more, but other than 1 main sponsor of $10.000 we had to raise every other dollar by nickles and dimes. I dont think we will find a sponsor in our town ( pop 23.000 ) thats going to give us $30.000 or more in 19 days.
FIRST is not being fair to the Adults and thats not an opinion, Thats a FACT.
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Unread 24-10-2001, 16:27
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Quote:
Originally posted by nick reynolds
Andy, its true for many teams, and if you look at our regional in CT you will see its on the 6th of april. The Nationals is on the 25th thats 19 days later.
In that amount of time including the sunday after the regional and the Wednesday that we arrive in Florida we would have to collect $30.000 or more from sponsors and book airline tickets, and reserve rooms in Disney. All the Adults who would be with the students would then have to upheave all the places where they work so they could get the time off to go.
I dont know your situation at work but many Adults and Parents who would normaly go to Florida with the team requier more than "19 DAYS" to make this happen. Last year we fund raised the whole year, we did Tag sales, Can and Bottle drives, Bulbs, calenders, Raffles and a whole lot more, but other than 1 main sponsor of $10.000 we had to raise every other dollar by nickles and dimes. I dont think we will find a sponsor in our town ( pop 23.000 ) thats going to give us $30.000 or more in 19 days.
FIRST is not being fair to the Adults and thats not an opinion, Thats a FACT.
Actually, that would be an opinion and not a fact. It would be unfair if FIRST banned specific teams from going or made it nearly impossible for certain teams to go. But they haven't. They've simply put in place a way to qualify for nationals. In fact, they've only made it difficult for odd numbered teams to attend this year. Next year, it's first-come/first-serve for odd numbered teams. It's very hard not to read "FIRST is not being fair to the Adults" as "it's unfair that I don't get to go to Nationals" and I'm sure some people are going to make that mistake; so I'll assume you're not. But I think the important consideration is for who's benefit exactly is FIRST? Is it for the adult mentors? Or is it for the students? If like me, you think FIRST is around for the benefit of the students than you realize that improving the experience of nationals is beneficial for the students; whether on your team or on others.

But I digress. Given that you've never actually attempted to raise enough money to go to Florida in three weeks time, then I would say that you're not in a position to say that it's impossible. And having done it before, I'd say that while it is hard work and not every team will be able to do it, it is possible.

But you may end up evaluating your alternatives and realize that it's not worth the effort to do so. And then you may just have to learn to live with the fact that you won't be going to nationals this year. And realize it's neither the end of the world nor the end of FIRST.

Matt
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 18:23
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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Matt. Your assuming a lot.
We 'dont' have three weeks to beg $30.000 + we only have 19 days. and thats if we wait untill the first day of the Nationals. You dont address how all the Adults get the time off from work to escort the students who would go, unless your assuming the students go to Florida with no Adults. That wont fly.
You make it sound so easy to go out and just knock on doors and stick out your hand for $30.000+. We could do a can and bottle drive all we need is 600.000 units.
Your also assuming that next year it will be the odd teams turn? can you guarantee that or will some unforseen problem change the T
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 18:56
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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Matt. Your assuming a lot.
We 'dont' have three weeks to beg $30.000 + we only have 19 days. and thats if we wait untill the first day of the Nationals. You dont address how all the Adults get the time off from work to escort the students who would go, unless your assuming the students go to Florida with no Adults. That wont fly.
You make it sound so easy to go out and just knock on doors and stick out your hand for $30.000+. We could do a can and bottle drive all we need is 600.000 units. Where did your team get $30.000+ in 3 weeks, I would love to know how you did it.
Your also assuming that next year it will be the odd teams turn? can you guarantee that, or will some unforseen problem change the Tides of the game.
If last year you told me that only the even # teams would be going to Florida next year plus a few selected teams I would have thought you were nuts, but it happened.
I think Students look at things differently than the Mentors, we not only have to worry about our selves and our families and our work, our home's and will the plants be dead when we get home, but we also worry about "you".

(" But you may end up evaluating your alternatives and realize that it's not worth the effort to do so. And then you may just have to learn to live with the fact that you won't be going to nationals this year. And realize it's neither the end of the world nor the end of FIRST.")

Im not sure how to respond to this other than if this year is your last in High School because your graduating the it will be the end of FIRST for that student.
I wish I was 35 years younger and a student in High School then the whole world would seem just fine.
I love the concept of FIRST and I enjoy working with all the students, The Regionals are just an amazment to me as I look at "all" The creations of all the teams. But these are just the robots in our Regional, There are hundreds more in Florida that we wont get to see this year. Seing all the Robots from all the teams is part of the learning experience. All team who wish to go to Florida should be alowed to go as it has been in the past.
As new rookie teams join what will happen when there are the same total of even or odd teams that equal the total of all teams today. will we get the chance to go to Florida every 4 years???
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 18:59
Jay Lundy Jay Lundy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nick reynolds
Matt. Your assuming a lot.
We 'dont' have three weeks to beg $30.000 + we only have 19 days. and thats if we wait untill the first day of the Nationals. You dont address how all the Adults get the time off from work to escort the students who would go, unless your assuming the students go to Florida with no Adults. That wont fly.
You make it sound so easy to go out and just knock on doors and stick out your hand for $30.000+. We could do a can and bottle drive all we need is 600.000 units. Where did your team get $30.000+ in 3 weeks, I would love to know how you did it.
Your also assuming that next year it will be the odd teams turn? can you guarantee that, or will some unforseen problem change the Tides of the game.
If last year you told me that only the even # teams would be going to Florida next year plus a few selected teams I would have thought you were nuts, but it happened.
I think Students look at things differently than the Mentors, we not only have to worry about our selves and our families and our work, our home's and will the plants be dead when we get home, but we also worry about "you".

As new rookie teams join what will happen when there are the same total of even or odd teams that equal the total of all teams today. will we get the chance to go to Florida every 4 years???
If you're having trouble making a last minute flight out to Florida, then instead of planning on not going, start planning this year like you are going. Make sure all the adults have enough vacation days to make the trip, and try to get sponsors to pay for the trip. Make an arrangement with a sponsor that they will only give you the money if you actually do qualify for Florida. It might even be easier, because the only way a non-prequalified team can make it to nationals is by winning, and all sponsors love to give money to a winning team. This way, if you don't end up going to nationals, you have 3 weeks to tell your coworkers that you will in fact be working on the days you normally would have been going to nationals.

As for the problems of dying plants and your other concerns, 3 weeks is plenty of time to arrange someone to take care of them. Don't forget that the students also have to tell all their teachers they are going to be gone and get all the make-up work (which can be quite a lot!) 3 weeks is plenty of time to arrange all these small details.

And yes, I think it is completely valid to assume that next year the odd teams will get first come first serve. FIRST doesn't have anything against odd team, as hard to believe as that may seem. It's just a coincidence that the year they absolutely had to do something about nationals was also an even year. It probably took them several months to make this decision (I know I heard rumors about the even/odd and the point system as well as other possible solutions as early as last June) so this most likely will not change for many years.

Lastly, yes, you are entirely correct that this system will not work when FIRST gets even larger. Eventually, Nationals will either (a) have to be ENTIRELY qualifying or (b) be spread out over several locations. However, if either of these were instituted this year, people most likely would complain even more.
The problem with (a) is obvious. Rookie teams would rarely be able to attend natoinals and some of the less successful teams might drop out. FIRST obviously could not make this decision.
The problem with (b) is that it just doesn't make sense (to me). The "nationals" would no longer be nationals, but instead would be regionals. There would be the western regional competition, and the eastern regional competition. Now it is possible to structure the championships like many other sporting events where the winners from each region come together for one final game, but then there comes the problem of time constraints (could run into school finals) and money (2x the trips = 2x the money).

Last edited by Jay Lundy : 24-10-2001 at 19:24.
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 19:05
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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I wish I was a Student........
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-10-2001, 21:37
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Quote:
Originally posted by nick reynolds

I think Students look at things differently than the Mentors, we not only have to worry about our selves and our families and our work, our home's and will the plants be dead when we get home, but we also worry about "you".

Nick,

Matt is not a HS student. He, in fact, is a mentor for team #73. I'm pretty sure that he (and a few others at RIT) bucked some pretty long odds to resurrect the RIT team last year when he arrived on campus. I would guess that he actually has a lot more to worry about than the average mentor. I'm sure that he has more to worry about than I do.

P.J.
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Unread 24-10-2001, 23:17
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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PJ I wasnt aiming at Matts age or status In fact I only just now looked at his Bio, It does say "Student" but thats besides the point. I dont think its as easy as Matt seems to make it sound that to gather $30.000+ is a snap. We have on the back of our shirts all the sponsors who give us a reasonable amount of funds. This is $100.00 or more. We have dozens of names but no single company loves us enough to give us $30.000.
I am a Photographer and if I know today that I have a trip to Florida in April I will not book any weddings or jobs for that week. People dont book their weddings 19 days or even three weeks prior to the wedding so the chances of me booking a wedding or other job after the Regionals for the same week of the National is ZERO.
I have no problem losing the Money that I could make if I went to Florida and believe me its considerable but it makes no sense to lose the money if I dont have a guarantee that we will go. So do I not book the work and make the money and just keep my fingers crossed or do I book the work make the money and stay home.
Gee, some of you are thinking maybe you could give the money to the team but then I still could not go to Florida as I would have to work and the team needs Adults.
Is the -19 days between the Regionals and the Nationals fair for me. I bet there are others who are in the same situation as me.
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-10-2001, 19:21
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I don't think there's any need to go into the mentor bit suffice to say that we've managed to get some last minute funding here. But as far as raising enough money to travel to nationals in a short period of time, I've been there, done that. In 1999, team 7 (which was my team in high school) decided to attend nationals at the Philadelphia Regional. I believe there was approximately a month between that regional and nationals. We did not have any single large sponsor that year; instead, we had many smaller ones. So how you raise enough money to attend nationals quickly? You ask your sponsors to give whatever they can. You realize that everyone will have to pay part of their way. You fundraise as much as possible (we sold candy and each student raised about $200). As far as adults taking off work, it didn't seem to be a major problem but I guess it was helped by the fact that our adults either worked for the school or for our sponsors. I believe needing more than 3 weeks notice to take off work is an exception rather than the rule. Now, I'll be the first to admit that it wasn't easy and wasn't the preferred method of operation. But it is doable and more than anything, it also helped to bring the team together, which is even more important in my opinion.

So it is possible to attend nationals even if you haven't prequalified. Personally, I don't expect to attend nationals this year except if through some amazing fate. And I don't plan to participate on the FIRST team here next year (I'm supposed to be on coop winter quarter next year so there's a fair chance I won't be in the Rochester area) so I don't really intend to go next year. But I also don't think it's unfair that they limit who can go to nationals. You should remember that the important part of FIRST is the six-weeks of construction. While regionals and nationals are fun and a good experience, the really important parts are during construction.

Matt
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-10-2001, 21:07
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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Thats an amazing accomplishment Matt, I take my hat off to you.
We have a large team of students and we tell them it cost XXX$$$ to go to the regionals and the Nationals. As each $ comes in the totel needed to go is reduced. Personal collections are credited direct to the person who collects it.
Even so each student ends up with some kind of personal out of pocket expense. The total each student needed last year was $1743.00.
Many of the corporations that we solicit could afford to write a check for the whole budget but it never ceases to amaze me how a mega million $$$ company can donate $20.00. I wont name names but its pathetic getting $20.00 at a time from any one of a hundred companies that have a ton of money.
When our team won the New England Regional in 2000 we thought we would be buried in companies eager to sponsor us, It was only our 2nd year and we had won what we consider the hardest Regional in the land. we Milked our experiences and talent to the moon but to no avail. again we are struggling to get enough funds just go to our local regional.
We dont get any funds from the school, in fact we dont want it. They try to play politics with us even though we try to keep a low profile but its hard.
Again Matt, well done and a good job.
Nick237
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Unread 25-10-2001, 21:46
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Wow... You all just amaze me at how near and dear this Nationals (sorry, um Championship) is to your hearts. While Nationals are something to look forward to, is it because they are "Nationals", or because they are held at Disneyworld? Would everyone have the same passion in their hearts if FIRST originally held Nationals in Nebraksa and they were still there?

Personally, I agree with Andy B. that Disney is overrated. I also feel that it is ironic that BattleBots is hosting a competition right down the street in Orlando at the other (IMHO) greater theme park.

To be able to compete in Regional competitions with robots of such high caliber (regardless of which Regional) is an opportunity that 99% of the students in the United States will never have. All FIRST students (and adults) should be thankful for the events that we are able to participate in, regardless of where they are held. FIRST is about learning and establishing a repoire between students and professionals in technological fields that would normally never be accessible to them.

The original post in this thread was whether or not pre-qualified teams should be able to compete in Regionals. Posts have already stated yes, for the simple reason that the Regionals will give these teams "practice". Any pre-qualified team at a Regional will certainly try their best and learn from their experiences. I would hate to be a spectator and watch the "Championship", only to see a team perform poorly, not because of their robot's inept capabilities, but because they never had the opportunity to learn how to drive it.

While our country is in a great time of need, and wars are being fought, we are here at home arguing about what's fair and what's not fair. I've read posts about teams grumbling because they're only receiving $6000 this year and not $50000, and I've heard FIRST is biased towards certain teams for one reason or another. The rules have been issued, and for this year, we have to live with them.

Life is not fair, nor will it ever be. If you think that because you cannot pre-qualify to go to Florida is not fair, then try explaining your case to the thousands of families who lost their love ones on Sept. 11, 2001. At least you have another chance...

Respectfully,
Dave...
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Unread 25-10-2001, 22:31
Happy Birthday! nick reynolds nick reynolds is offline
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Your post is totaly uneccecery and has no foundation of comparison... where do you get off comparing the "despicable act of some filthy scum" who have murdered thousands of innocent people to the free speech of people on this site.
It is the right of every man to "agree to disagree" are you saying that we have no right to tell it as we see it. As far as where the Nationals are or what ever antiseptic other name they want to call it, I feel that when I and the rest of our team has spent 6 weeks of intense work then we deserve the right to test our Robots metal agains all who are in the competition , even or odd.
Where its held has no interest to me. As far as Disney is concerned I have no desire to ever go there. The cost is to expensive, the rides have no alure for me. Each year when there the whole team has the park tickets that come with the trip I have "NEVER" USED THEM. I sell mine on Ebay $180.00 each.
Nebraska sounds just great to me, its a lot closer than Florida and im sure a lot cheaper for Hotels. Do you think a Bottle of water costs $4.00 in Nebraska like in "Di$ney world".

" "then try explaining your case to the thousands of families who lost their love ones on Sept. 11, 2001. At least you have another chance... " "

Totaly unexceptable. DAVE.
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Unread 25-10-2001, 23:00
Jessica Boucher Jessica Boucher is offline
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Please, Mr. Reynolds.

I know things aren't perfect, and not the way the team wants them at all.....but all that can be done is the best with what is available. There's no reason to be publicly bitter over the situation to people who aren't involved. The way to change things comes internally, not externally...and once that is done, things will fall into place.

I'm sorry, but Brandon, I think this thread is only pouring salt on many wounds and is very off topic. I dont know if anyone agrees with me, but I'd like to see it closed.
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