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Unread 12-05-2009, 16:42
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
Second, I see sportsmanship and professionalism as something you step onto the field with, not what you come off with. Meaning that if a team "blows you apart" or out of the water then how is that them not being professional? YOU as the losing team should know you played your hardest and that the other alliance did too. I don't see teams being maniacal about beating other teams when they know they can. Hell, at our regionals there are teams who can pummel others without really trying, but when we lose to them there is no distaste, there is no contempt, there is no lack of sportsmanship. We all play as we would in any other sport. If FIRST believes this is not the meaning of sportsmanship then perhaps they should reevaluate what professionalism means as well.
To add on to this, consider a situation where you know you are going to lose. Do you really want the other team to sandbag half the match because of an arbitrary rule, knowing that they still have a clear victory? I would feel insulted if I played someone and they didn't respect me enough to give it their best, regardless of the strength of the two alliances or the scores after.

It's almost taunting... as if FIRST is making the victors say "We know we can beat you by so much we need to slow down so we don't get penalized," without even having to say it.

And if a team tries to avoid a G14 but ends up causing a loss due to poor real-time scoring, do you think the rule got the desired effect? It could certainly happen; realtime scores could often be off by more than 20 points per alliance. Also, do not forget 188's strategy in GTR. If they managed to get the triple G14 they might have won the entire event.

Understand that it is not the effect of the rule on this game (which was important, but not completely gamebreaking), but the concept of penalizing teams for being to effective at the stated goal of the game that I have a problem with.
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Unread 10-05-2009, 23:45
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
i dont understand how anyone enjoyed overdrive, just my opinion
Two words: Hockey sticks.

Trobotics (1346) Overdrive robot was wonderfully entertaining to watch.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 16:15
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by PaW View Post
Two words: Hockey sticks.

Trobotics (1346) Overdrive robot was wonderfully entertaining to watch.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31070
Thanks! But I seem to recall a cute little two-wheeled purple machine that helped knock us out in the quarter finals was pretty cool, too. Just another example of multiple solutions to a similar problem.

One thing I consider when looking at "best game ever" descriptions is what use a competitive robot can be put to in the post-season. In other words, are the machines... on their own... as cool as they are when they are playing the game?

In that respect, I think Aim High gave our team it's best legacy in terms of an entertaining demo robot. Combine that with the fact that the game, itself, was exceptionally cool and relatively easy to watch, understand, and score in real time, and that would count as my "best game ever".

I have yet to experience a "bad" game, however, and have enjoyed them all. This year the playing field was certainly an interesting change-up. I was expecting maybe some type of pea-gravel pit, or perhaps a barrier for robots to go under (or over), but the low-friction idea was fun and will keep teams from getting too specific on their off-season drivetrain R&D for a few years to come.

And while I'll certainly give the GDC credit for coming up with these game ideas, really, the reason they are fun is because of the ingenueity and attitude that the teams bring with them to the competition. The GDC deserves credit for putting together a good game, but we are the ones that turn it into a great game.

Jason

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Unread 11-05-2009, 00:19
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
i dont understand how anyone enjoyed overdrive, just my opinion
I don't understand how anyone enjoyed Lunacy, just my opinion.

EDIT: I guess the internet has trouble with sarcasm, I didn't mean that statement literally.

Luncay wasn't 100% horrid, yes I enjoyed it, but I don't like it compared to other games.

I made my statement because I find it funny Dan is shocked by people criticizing Lunacy, then is so bold to say nobody could like overdrive.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just find it funny.

Last edited by AdamHeard : 11-05-2009 at 01:48.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 00:39
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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i don't understand how anyone enjoyed overdrive, just my opinion
Quote:
I don't understand how anyone enjoyed Lunacy, just my opinion.
I don't understand how anyone can not enjoy any FIRST game.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the GDC has never failed.

Every year, we have to work like crazy to design, build and operate our robots
Every year, we are kept awake, thinking of how to make our robots better
Every year, the competitions are as amazing experiences as ever
Every year, someone builds something that makes us go "WOWW!!"
And every year, someone is inspired.

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Unread 11-05-2009, 00:51
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by rocketperson44 View Post
I don't understand how anyone can not enjoy any FIRST game.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the GDC has never failed.

Every year, we have to work like crazy to design, build and operate our robots
Every year, we are kept awake, thinking of how to make our robots better
Every year, the competitions are as amazing experiences as ever
Every year, someone builds something that makes us go "WOWW!!"
And every year, someone is inspired.

.02
This just blows me away. well said
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Unread 11-05-2009, 06:27
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

Lol, i love that people are that upset about my silly comment about overdrive

maybe its because i perfer games that resemble real sports more. I think they are interesting to watch and more accessable to the general public. I feel the best games have high robot to robot interaction, lots of moving game pieces, and clear offense and defensive strategys

i didnt like overdive because there was little to no robot to robot interaction, a single dimension game, and no real defesnsive stratgy since there was to great of a chance of getting a driving backwards violation or contact outside of the bumper zone
i just remember the only match i enjoyed that didn't envolve my own robot or a friends robot was the national finals

on the other hand, i greatly enjoyed watching every match in Aimhigh, matches with interesting robots in Rack and Roll(including starting a "This is Awesome" chant during the match that i believe was the highest scoring match ever in the game) and i LOVED watching games in lunacy


oh and by love that people are upset i mean find it sort of commical and not litterally "YES IM CAUSING CHAOS!"
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Unread 11-05-2009, 13:18
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
i didnt like overdive because there was little to no robot to robot interaction, a single dimension game, and no real defesnsive stratgy since there was to great of a chance of getting a driving backwards violation or contact outside of the bumper zone
There were matches that involved real clean defensive strategy that won matches that I recall. I realize that this match did not happen during the regular season, but it proves the point.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 15:50
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
maybe its because i perfer games that resemble real sports more. I think they are interesting to watch and more accessable to the general public. I feel the best games have high robot to robot interaction, lots of moving game pieces, and clear offense and defensive strategys
That certainly does not describe Lunacy. There has yet to be a worse game for accessibility to the public in the 9 years I have been doing FIRST.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 16:12
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

I didn't like Lunacy for the many reasons. Before I post my reasons, I would like to make something clear: I am not trying to place blame anywhere.

1) The field flooring was way too expensive for teams, especially in this economy.
2) The availability and cost of the balls. How do you design a robot to hold 40 balls when you could only afford to buy about 10?
3) It was boring to watch - at least for me. I could hardly follow what was going on. I prefer a game where a team knows what their score is by looking on the field. Yes, the real-time scoring was there but it was not reliable.
4) Punishing teams for building good robots with the serpentine draft and taking away super cells.
5) Standard wheels for everyone.
6) There were only about 4 types of designs for a robot - BORING!
7) If a team was dead during a match, it killed the alliance. Dead driver stations and other control system issues decided many regionals.
8) Some robot rules were way over-designed and over-complicated such as the bumpers.

The outcome/good:
1) The game let teams who were nobody last year emerge as champions at regionals. But it was not because they were able to build a good robot - it was because of luck, standard robot designs, and a game that leveled the playing field for everyone.
2) The new look of the playing field was different and kind of exciting. The concept of the game is really cool and a change from the carpet was welcome. Just not for a game like Lunacy.

Overall, I cannot say that I liked Lunacy at all. In my book, it goes down as being one of the worst games ever. Sometimes I feel that the rules butcher the fun of the competing. I'm looking forward to a more exciting 2010 season.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 19:06
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bharat Nain View Post
I didn't like Lunacy for the many reasons. Before I post my reasons, I would like to make something clear: I am not trying to place blame anywhere.

1) The field flooring was way too expensive for teams, especially in this economy.
2) The availability and cost of the balls. How do you design a robot to hold 40 balls when you could only afford to buy about 10?
3) It was boring to watch - at least for me. I could hardly follow what was going on. I prefer a game where a team knows what their score is by looking on the field. Yes, the real-time scoring was there but it was not reliable.
4) Punishing teams for building good robots with the serpentine draft and taking away super cells.
5) Standard wheels for everyone.
6) There were only about 4 types of designs for a robot - BORING!
7) If a team was dead during a match, it killed the alliance. Dead driver stations and other control system issues decided many regionals.
8) Some robot rules were way over-designed and over-complicated such as the bumpers.

The outcome/good:
1) The game let teams who were nobody last year emerge as champions at regionals. But it was not because they were able to build a good robot - it was because of luck, standard robot designs, and a game that leveled the playing field for everyone.
2) The new look of the playing field was different and kind of exciting. The concept of the game is really cool and a change from the carpet was welcome. Just not for a game like Lunacy.

Overall, I cannot say that I liked Lunacy at all. In my book, it goes down as being one of the worst games ever. Sometimes I feel that the rules butcher the fun of the competing. I'm looking forward to a more exciting 2010 season.
I have the same feeling and I'm sooooo waiting for 2010. This game was a drag and I hate fridge bots. There were some impressively designed bots, but overall I was not impressed.

But I will say this game was necessary/needed when introducing so many new things to FIRST aka the Controller.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 16:17
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
That certainly does not describe Lunacy. There has yet to be a worse game for accessibility to the public in the 9 years I have been doing FIRST.
Agreed.

Every parent I talked to this year said they had no clue what was going on. Having 6 mobile goals and 120+ game pieces flying around everywhere is a lot more confusing than 4 balls, 4 lines and 2 bars.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 17:01
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Agreed.

Every parent I talked to this year said they had no clue what was going on. Having 6 mobile goals and 120+ game pieces flying around everywhere is a lot more confusing than 4 balls, 4 lines and 2 bars.
Same here. It was the only game since 2000 that my grandparents actually had to ask my brother and I, "What's the point of this?"
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Unread 11-05-2009, 17:56
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Every parent I talked to this year said they had no clue what was going on. Having 6 mobile goals and 120+ game pieces flying around everywhere is a lot more confusing than 4 balls, 4 lines and 2 bars.
That's why 2000 was such a great game. I'll explain the 2000 game in 4 lines:

- There's one Red Goal and one Blue Goal (for the Red Alliance and Blue Alliance). The goals are in the center of the field and don't move.

- Score balls in the goals - yellow balls are worth 1 point, black are 5 points.

- A robot hanging on the bar is worth 10 points and a robot parked on the ramp is worth 5 points.

Oops, that was only three lines.

Here's a picture to make the above description crystal clear:

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Unread 11-05-2009, 19:13
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post

Here's a picture to make the above description crystal clear:

And a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJFbvHRyco
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