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Unread 11-05-2009, 18:33
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
That certainly does not describe Lunacy. There has yet to be a worse game for accessibility to the public in the 9 years I have been doing FIRST.
I totally agree with Cory...
While it was sort of fun to play....

The general public had a very difficult time following the game.
Much of the time it was difficult to see who was scoring and on whom...

The movement of the Empty Cell to the loading station was almost impossible to see for the spectator unless they were watching one robot very closely...and the supercell entry was also difficult to watch.

We took our entire school to the regional and the comments I received were much more of the "what was going on?" type of comment.

They had difficulty figuring out which robots were on which teams...(even though the trailers had red and blue colored bumpers...) It was difficult to see the bumpers at times in melees...

Because the robots started from all over the field it was also difficult to figure out which robots were on which alliances...

Very difficult for spectators to appreciate the nuances of the game when teams were pinned for long periods of time... etc etc..

Even though I was not overly fond of Overdrive... it was easy to cheer for the Red Alliance when the big RED ball went over the bar...
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Unread 11-05-2009, 18:43
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
That certainly does not describe Lunacy. There has yet to be a worse game for accessibility to the public in the 9 years I have been doing FIRST.
I disagree. I've been talking to my classmates about FIRST for a few months, and during build season I'd mention stuff about Overdrive and Rack and Roll, and it would take people awhile to get it. Overdrive wasn't so bad, but Rack and Roll's grid system wasn't spectator friendly.

When I showed people Lunacy it was a lot simpler. I could basically say "well, it's like basketball with hoops called "trailers" behind each robot. 6 humans try to shoot balls in the trailers, and robots can either get balls from humans or pick up missed shots to score on opponents. There's a special ball that can be brought to the corner to activate a green ball worth more points". Then they'd get it.

My parents when watching Lunacy matches knew what was going on without having to ask any questions other than "what's the green ball do".
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Unread 11-05-2009, 18:47
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

It's easy to understand basically what's going on in Lunacy, but it is very hard to actually follow the action itself. If you don't pick one robot and follow it around the whole match you are just going to get lost.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 19:23
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
When I showed people Lunacy it was a lot simpler. I could basically say "well, it's like basketball with hoops called "trailers" behind each robot. 6 humans try to shoot balls in the trailers, and robots can either get balls from humans or pick up missed shots to score on opponents. There's a special ball that can be brought to the corner to activate a green ball worth more points". Then they'd get it.
It's not that difficult to explain the basic premise of Lunacy. The problem is it's nearly impossible for the casual spectator to follow and extremely boring.

I find it boring watching all the matches with a 4 robot cluster stuck in one corner for 1:30. I can't imagine how boring that must seem to people who have no idea what FIRST is and have never seen a robotics competition before.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 07:18
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
It's not that difficult to explain the basic premise of Lunacy. The problem is it's nearly impossible for the casual spectator to follow and extremely boring.

I find it boring watching all the matches with a 4 robot cluster stuck in one corner for 1:30. I can't imagine how boring that must seem to people who have no idea what FIRST is and have never seen a robotics competition before.
I think part of what was boring was that there were technically 12 things (6 bots, 6 trailers) on the same size field that usually has 6. This made it kind of congested, and many matches happened where there was a big clump in the middle. The other thing I didn't like about Lunacy was the super cell. Basically a human player had the ability to change the victor in a match that was within 15 points on both sides. I rarely ever saw a robot score a super cell. I like human players, but I liked them best in 07, where they existed, but couldn't influence a matches outcome. The one thing that I don't really feel bad about criticizing is G14, you can't penalize people for doing well. Period.

Don't get me wrong on these comments though, I thought Lunacy was a good game. It was fun to play and especially fun to strategize in. Above I am simply pointing out the aspects of the game that I thought could have been a little better. Overall I thought Lunacy was great, but I did like the two previous years a little better.

Last edited by sgreco : 12-05-2009 at 09:06.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 00:41
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
i dont understand how anyone enjoyed overdrive, just my opinion
Well, that is great that you have an opinion. I also have an opinion and it differs from yours. Maybe some day you can understand how people can have different ones.

No seriously, I wasn't a fan of Lunacy, just my opinion. I didnt think it was as amazing to watch as Overdrive. I do believe this is because I too enjoy a good drive train. I also enjoy a cool manipulator. I didnt see any truly awesome ways of scoring this year. (Opinion again, Im sure people will disagree with me here but hey, Im ok with that)
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Unread 11-05-2009, 06:35
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
This might be a little over dramatic, but i am bothered by all the complaining about this years game, because i for one, being a six year veteran of FIRST, loved this game, and heres why.


The floor/wheels: Totally changed the game, i loved that, in life, ur not always going to have the same challenge facing you when ur creating machines, we need something to completely throw us for a loop. it makes us better engineers.
I disagree on this point, but being part of the military, my opinion here may be invalid. No matter what the challenge, high explosives always achieve their intent. Always.

Anyway, all satirical opinions aside, this game really did force teams to push the envelope... As long as their newly created envelope fits inside the rigid and ridiculously strict bumper rules.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 07:21
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

Every year, at the kickoff I profess to dislike the new game and every year at the end of the season I declare my admiration for that year's game; this year was no exception. I can't wait to see what comes next!
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Unread 11-05-2009, 08:03
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

I thought lunacy was a great game for this year. with the new control system, I thought is was really important to have a game that a decent driving bot could be effective.

Human players were the main scorers for most teams (yes there are tons of examples where this is not true, but sifting through the data HP players accounted for more than 50% of the scoring) which made it more about the team experience.

This year the big programming and chassis stuff was very much controls related. Traction control systems of different levels of complexity yielded distinct advantages.
Creavitity of the fan drive system helped those that had the weight and did their homework. While not necessary to win, the properly implemented system were beneficial.

As far as watching it from the stands, Lunacy had the same problem as Soccer, Hockey, or Demolition Derbies. If you don't understand what is going on it is hard to recognize a great tactic from wreckless hitting.

That being said the rules are much more simple than say Football or "Zone Zeal" where you needed to read a manual before you had any clue what was going on.

Some like people like hockey/soccer, some like football, others like baseball/cricket.

Thank you game design commitee for another wonderful game. In general I like all of the games (but there are usually a few rules that I don't like).
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Unread 11-05-2009, 09:28
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by CraigHickman View Post
Anyway, all satirical opinions aside, this game really did force teams to push the envelope... As long as their newly created envelope fits inside the rigid and ridiculously strict bumper rules.
Craig, I got a good chuckle out of this.

As far as Lunacy being the best game ever, you'll never prove it. Everyone has their favorite game so saying any game was the best ever is just asking for a debate.

Even though I liked Lunacy, Would I say it's the best ever? No. It was my favorite to drive in, by far, after having Driven at various levels in every game since Triple Play. This year was the First year in my memory where a good robot wasn't a win, but a good driver almost always was.

Anyway, at the end of the day, this is about Inspiration and Recognition. I know for sure as I know anything in this world that I was inspired and so were most of you, so I think Lunacy Served it's purpose.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 14:16
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

Q: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever?

A: No.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 14:49
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Dantvman27 View Post
Entertaining to watch: every person that i know that has watched FIRST events with me in the past and not knowing anything about robotics said this year was highly entertaining (over say, overdrive, which was one of the least entertaining games to watch). There was alot of robot interaction, high scoring, and just fun thigns to watch. Games like this and AIM high, IMO attract more spectators.
i don’t know who you were talking to but everyone I've talked to says they were bored out of their minds with this year’s game. I thought overdive was boring to watch, but at least during the finals on Einstein it was intense and sort of exciting to see how fast those teams could score. This year those on Einstein were so good at dodging that it hardly mattered that they had an incredible scoring device. There was no real last second exciting finish like with the ramps of 06 & 07 or the hanging bar in 04. Yes one can argue that the supercell was exciting, but it was hard to see which human player had one, and then they didn’t always use it, and rarely made it.

I did like how they really changed up the playing field and made veterans come out of their shells. However the bumpers seemed to really limit the design potential. While I don't like bumpers at all, I do see where they have a purpose, and it acts as a design constraint just like ones found in the "real world."

My $0.02 summary of the past 5 years:

05-great strategy, heavy objects lifted over 10ft, control a must, end game line not really important
06-similar to basketball, easy to explain, fast paced high scoring, bonus ramp
07-great strategy, work together to lift each other off the ground
08-almost no strategy, easy to score, manipulate huge balls, end game had little impact, limited human player
09- no apparent strategy, new playing surface, human player is key, end game hard to see and had little impact

Those are just the games i have actually seen.

I would agree with most that the best game was 04.

IMHO Lunacy=worst game in at least 6 years
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Unread 12-05-2009, 15:05
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by bigbeezy View Post
09- no apparent strategy,
While I understand and partially agree with most of your concerns, I think Lunacy was one of the most strategy-oriented FIRST games in recent memory. You had to think 20 seconds ahead the whole time to win. I mean, it's certainly better than 2008 strategy wise, which was pretty much equivalent to Nascar in terms of strategy required.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 16:13
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
While I understand and partially agree with most of your concerns, I think Lunacy was one of the most strategy-oriented FIRST games in recent memory. You had to think 20 seconds ahead the whole time to win. I mean, it's certainly better than 2008 strategy wise, which was pretty much equivalent to Nascar in terms of strategy required.
Theres always a strategy regardless...but was their really a strategy you had to execute during the match, or was it more of a gameplan you tied to follow?

Maybe the terms gameplan and strategy can be used interchangeably, I'm not sure. However, you say you need to think 20 seconds ahead...but is that really possible? I mean you can anticipate something is going to happen based on scouting, or experience, but can you really follow the same "strategy" through the entire match?

I don't think you can. Some of the best teams had a "gameplan" they executed wonderfully. I saw 121 execute the same general gameplan, match in and match out all year...yet they dominated, rightfully so. They would simply collect balls by driving in a loop towards the middle of the field, find a target and dump...rinse and repeat. Is this a strategy that changed a lot for them? nope...and it didn't matter..they still did extremely well, regardless.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 18:14
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Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever

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Originally Posted by bigbeezy View Post
05-great strategy, heavy objects lifted over 10ft, control a must, end game line not really important
The line was a lie!
The real endgame in 2005 was last the second change in goal ownership, and it was one of the more exciting endgames (imho).

Who needs a silly gimmick to have a "climatic finisher". I think some of the best game designs are the ones that are naturally exciting down to the buzzer, and even build in intensity as they approach the end.

It seems like we've gotten locked in this paradigm of "if it doesn't have a ramp, then the end isn't exciting...this game sucks because it doesn't have a ramp."

-John
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