From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals

[Francis-134]

I would really enjoy some spiffy pins, but I agree with Evan in that it would kinda stink to not recieve one. The thing with a bronze medal is that a silver or gold medal is a direct upgrade. These pins are more shiny stuff that I would like to have.

It might be a little selfish, but I really want more pins to put on my hat/jacket. Hopefully they will be cheap enough to give a bunch to every team.

[JVN]

Right now, if a student participates for only one season, and their team does not "place" at an event, then he/she still gets to walk away with a medal...

[AndyB]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

In all seriousness though, I think I would definitely prefer customized pins. IMO they look cooler than bronze medals, and you can add them to a hat or something and keep a record of the games you've participated in. The only downside I see is that if they're truly a one-to-one swap for the bronze medals, the teams that win silver and gold at their first regional will miss out on cool pins...

I'm with Billfred, my bronze medals just hang around and clank when something touches them. They're nice to complete the timeline, but they're big and heavy for that purpose alone.

Have to agree with you on this one. There is no practicality in the bronze medals. They are worn for, at most, a day and replacing them would probably save a pretty penny. I also like the idea of displaying your pins at FIRST events. The bronze medals all pretty much look the same and they seem to just blend together as more are collected rather than provide a memory.

[EricH]

I'd go for the following:
1) replace the bronze medals with pins of some kind
2) restore the old trophy sizes
3) eliminate the automatic second trophy per award (Any team that wants it can request it, though--they pay shipping)
4) local suppliers for the trophies and medals, if possible--have them show up Wed. during field setup with trophies boxed, then any leftover trophies get set on to the next event or ATL.

Seems that that could reduce a lot of shipping costs, and some production costs at the same time. Logistics are a little more convoluted, but how many teams actually give the second trophy to a sponsor? (And how many sponsors already have too many?)

[JVN]

Food for thought:

Who has read FIRST's 2008 annual report?
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...8_AR_FINAL.pdf

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by EricH

[ ... ] how many teams actually give the second trophy to a sponsor? (And how many sponsors already have too many?)

Can sponsors have too few trophies displaying their outreach efforts? Some teams cycle through minor sponsors like candy some years while others have one or two major sponsors. Some teams, like mine, are in between. We still don't have a trophy at every one of our sponsors, and we've won a plethora of awards. We make plaques for each sponsor instead, but that doesn't mean we don't want to specifically recognize the help that was given to us by the one sponsor that goes the extra mile. A sponsor helped us win Engineering Inspiration in 2008 with a mentor who reviewed our writing and guided us with presentation, so of course that EI trophy went to that sponsor. We definitely do not want to stop this practice.

On top of that, we are SO CLOSE to having a fuller display cabinet at the school than the football team. All we need is a regional win or a national award coupled with a regional award (granted the school has only been around for 6 years, but it has a good football team...).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Can sponsors have too few trophies displaying their outreach efforts? Some teams cycle through minor sponsors like candy some years while others have one or two major sponsors. Some teams, like mine, are in between. We still don't have a trophy at every one of our sponsors, and we've won a plethora of awards. We make plaques for each sponsor instead, but that doesn't mean we don't want to specifically recognize the help that was given to us by the one sponsor that goes the extra mile. A sponsor helped us win Engineering Inspiration in 2008 with a mentor who reviewed our writing and guided us with presentation, so of course that EI trophy went to that sponsor. We definitely do not want to stop this practice.

On top of that, we are SO CLOSE to having a fuller display cabinet at the school than the football team. All we need is a regional win or a national award coupled with a regional award (granted the school has only been around for 6 years, but it has a good football team...).

Exactly. Many teams already give their sponsors plaques or certificates or yearbooks instead of FRC trophies. Said teams wind up with their trophy space disappearing due to double trophies. So, you ship one trophy to each event. Teams winning an award at the event have the option to order another, either paying for shipping or not paying at all (FIRST gets the cost). Or you say, such-and-such local awards company has the pattern, talk to them and they'll get you the trophy. Now the team can choose to get the second trophy and give it to the sponsor, or not.

[Chris is me]

Local suppliers leads to inconsistent trophies. The current acrylic trophies are very clean and professional, and part of that I think is the consistency. Other ideas aren't so bad. Especially the trophy sizes thing.

I never knew the second trophy was intended for a primary sponsor... I just figured they thought most organizations would need to have more than one.

[Akash Rastogi]

I could definitely go for EricH's idea. If a team wants that second trophy then they should have to pay for at least the shipping.

Btw, as Libby said before, it's better to post directly on Bill's blog.

[David Brinza]

We're drifting off-topic here, but I'll state that I'm not in favor of eliminating the second trophy.

FIRST's intent is for the team to present this trophy to their primary sponsor. If your sponsor is in attendance at the event in which you win an award, that's a good time to present them with the trophy. It's "instant gratification" for their contribution to your team and the program. Alternatively, the team should arrange a presentation with the sponsor (i.e. invite the sponsor to a team banquet, or ask for an invitation for a tour, etc.). Your sponsor deserves (and will certainly appreciate) the award and recognition!

BTW, the incremental cost to FIRST for shipping these trophies to regionals and Championship is very low: they travel in the trucks along with the field.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I could definitely go for EricH's idea. If a team wants that second trophy then they should have to pay for at least the shipping.

If this was an option I don't think a single team would not request a second trophy. So now you are making teams that are successful have to pay extra because they are successful.


I don't care either way about pins vs metals. My question echos some others wondering how much they spend on these metals anyway? Over the past year or so there seems to be an effort to cut costs, but without knowing how much of an impact or savings these items are giving it seems silly to get all worked up over it.

For example How much do the metals cost to make (probably not the $12 they charge for extra ones)? How much would a custom made pin cost? A new pin would have to be redesigned every year, what does that cost? what tooling is associated with it. And most importantly what is the total being saved?

I honestly think that there are bigger items which FIRST can cut/change which will have a bigger impact on the bottom line. For example is it necessary to have a ~$50k fireworks display at the wrap party (estimate from what I know about fireworks) Why do we need the curtains in the pits in Atlanta when tape on the floor would be just fine, how much does it cost in rentals and manual labor to set them up?

Ultimately for me it comes down to this; saving money is good but unless you are going to pass along the savings to the teams, don't cheapen the student experience. The largest chunk of FIRST's operating budget is from team registration (14.4million) so in my mind customer satisfaction should be their highest priority, I didn't hear people complaining about getting a free metals but I am sure I will if they go away.

[Mr. Pockets]

Granted this has been my first season (hah hah pun ^_-), but I have mixed feelings. I have a feeling that especially to the rookie teams a medal would appear to be a far greater award than another pin (which quite frankly you have hundreds of by the end of the competition). On the other hand the more medals you get the less interesting they would become. Personally I would stick with the medals as I (and I may be very alone in this) get so many pins that an extra one would probably just end up swept in with the rest and end up in some bag or box while I try to find a better place to put them. At least for now I have so few medals that that isn't likely.

Originally Posted by AndyB

I also like the idea of displaying your pins at FIRST events.

Maybe I'm alone in this aspect too (or I just need to go to a few more competitions), but I never really pay attention to the pins everyone else is wearing. Typically the people wearing pins tend to be wearing so many that it would take you until next kick-off to identify them all or the people are wearing so few that you wouldn't even notice.

[RyanCahoon]

A couple of reactions:
1) I think it depends on what type of pin; Bill's posting is the first I heard of this idea, so I'm not sure what FIRST has in mind. A very nice, stamped/die cut metal pin I think could still hold a lot of significance. I hope FIRST doesn't think it can get away with the mass produced plastic pins that the teams give out. This distinction alone I think would help to set them apart.
2) At least for me, it's less about the physical significance than the memories and emotional weight that the medals carry. I have several FIRST participation medals, a regional champion, and a regional finalist medals at home, but to me, the most cherished of all my memorabilia from FIRST is the small pin I was given by Woodie Flowers when I met him in Atlanta last year. I think it's possible for a pin to carry the same weight to you as a medal, and how many people really pass through your room anyway?
3) From the standpoint of FIRST's mission to change a culture, I think the medallions have some significance. If we're trying to say to kids, "Hey, you can be just as successful and win just as much recognition from your peers by being on the robotics team as you can on the football team," there could be a lot of difference between "I got quarter kilo medal," and "I got a lapel pin." (perhaps some exaggeration present)

--Ryan

[dtengineering]

I guess how you feel about this is sort of based on the value that you put behind the medallion and what you do with it.

On our team, I take the box of medallions and squirrel them away until our school's end of year awards ceremonies. Then, each student who participated on the team is called up on stage to receive their medallion.

Should we receive a gold or silver medallion, well, I'll happily rethink our plans, but this works great with the bronze medallions. I don't see them as representative of our placing in any one tournament, but rather as representing a YEAR's worth of work... from summer car washes through public presentations to build and finally competition. The kids that are getting a medal have earned it by the time the awards ceremonies roll around.

Yeah, we could do the same thing with a pin, but really... it wouldn't be as impressive or as meaningful. There is some weight and solidity behind a medallion... a symbolisim that just isn't quite matched by a pin.

So count me solidly in the "Medal" camp, even if it means raising an extra $5 per kid relative to a pin, I think they're worth it.

Jason

[Alivia]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pockets

On the other hand the more medals you get the less interesting they would become.

I disagree with this statement. I was lucky enough to start my FIRST career with Team Hammond, and have had the honor of accumulating several medals throughout my time on that team. No matter how many medals I have, each one stands for something different; a different moment in my FIRST career. I could pick up a medal and tell you exactly what event it came from, what year I was on the team, and everything about the game itself. More than that, I could give you the countless memories and stories behind those medals without any hesitation.

I'm now a mentor for Team 1720, who have yet to win a regional or place as finalists. I've seen kids go through the entire program and graduate, without winning that elusive regional. The pins seem like a good idea, until I think about those kids. I would hate to see them go through the entire program and not get some kind of reward for all their hard work. And, while a pin is easier to "show off" than a medal, it cannot replace the accomplishment one feels when he/she has that ribbon wrapped around their neck. I understand that people who have a lot of medals might think the medals are mundane after a while, but to some, medals are fairly rare and give a sense of accomplishment after a hard season.