[FTC]: FVC (Vex) VS. FTC (Tetrix)

[Rick TYler]

I've collected some "typical" cost data for FLL,VRC, and FTC. The FLL and FTC cost data came from FIRST WA and USFIRST sources, and the VRC data came from me (we are in our fourth year running a multi-team VEX program, so I consider "me" a pretty reliable source). I've included FLL as it is FIRST's middle-school program, and VRC is also used by a number of middle school programs.

Disclaimer: Like Rich Kressley, I consult for IFI.

I estimated costs for a classroom-sized team with four robots for all programs, and estimated costs for the initial year of competition, and then the second year when fewer parts must be purchased. None of the cost estimates include shipping or taxes. Link to spreadsheet: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2285

First year cost estimates for four teams:

VEX Robotics Competition: $3,596
FIRST LEGO League: $3,095
FIRST Tech Challenge: $6,796

Additional year cost estimates for four teams:

VEX Robotics Competition: $800
FIRST LEGO League: $1,365
FIRST Tech Challenge: $2,796

If you go to the linked spreadsheet it is pretty easy to change the values to ones that seem good to you. I hope you enjoy playing with the spreadsheet, and make sure you look at the "Expense Graphs" tab, too.

[JesseK]

Using "me" as a credible source sometimes leads to the paradox of knowledge: you can't unlearn what you now know as fact and don't remember not knowing so long ago.

Sigh, the rest is in a PM.

[Rick TYler]

JesseK sent me a thoughtful PM, and I encourage you to do what JesseK did -- pull up the spreadsheet and enter your own figures.

This year, VEX is introducing a new WiFi controller and field management system, which some tournaments will require this year and others won't. The spreadsheet has a line item for this, which was left blank when I ran my numbers. If you include the $149 upgrade as a first-year expense, and purchase an extra remote control and some extra $20 motors, the first year VRC expense for four teams goes up to a little under $5,000.

Similarly, I based the FTC numbers off of what FIRST says, including $300 for "additional parts." Last year, our FTC teams spent far more than that -- at least $500 per team, mostly for extra gears, motor and servo controllers, and replacement motors. Since the new FTC rules seem to allow ANY LEGO component, and not just the ones in the FTC kit, I foresee teams spending more on LEGO than they did last year. Your mileage may vary, so pull up that spreadsheet and put in your own numbers.

JesseK also said that the recurring costs are higher than I estimated. In our experience, we plan to budget about 20% of parts cost per year in upgrades and replacements. I used lower figures than that for both FTC and VRC, but for MY teams (who tend to spend pretty heavily) we would use the higher numbers. I included lower numbers for recurring costs than our own teams' expenses, but we also buy things like aluminum frame kits and all the new parts that come out, so we are at the high end. I see lots of successful VEX robots that clearly cost less than ours. We are also a fourth-year program that has never stopped raising money, so we can afford the new toys.

Honest, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one here. Use the spreadsheet (or don't) to figure out the financial aspect of which is the best program for you. Obviously, money is only one aspect of this decision, so don't forget to look at other things like how well a certain program meets your own educational goals, local tournament availability, and local volunteer support.

[Akash Rastogi]

LOL

so this morning I got an email from our robotics teacher that the kids in our Elementary Robotics course chose the VEX game and kit over the FTC game and kit. 22 kids in each of the elem robotics classes didn't want to work on the FTC robot at all....that's kinda telling me something important.

I liked the FTC game A LOT this year and I'm pretty bummed I won't be mentoring a team to build a robot for it.

[Chris is me]

I'd pick the Vex kit, but the FTC game personally... I'm surprised that not one person would want to do FTC...

Anyway, this means that you and I have to make a team!

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

LOL

so this morning I got an email from our robotics teacher that the kids in our Elementary Robotics course chose the VEX game and kit over the FTC game and kit. 22 kids in each of the elem robotics classes didn't want to work on the FTC robot at all....that's kinda telling me something important.

I liked the FTC game A LOT this year and I'm pretty bummed I won't be mentoring a team to build a robot for it.

I'm pretty sure that these students were given some prior information other than simply "Hey, choose one." That would probably have influenced their decision.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

I'm pretty sure that these students were given some prior information other than simply "Hey, choose one." That would probably have influenced their decision.

Actually playing with the kits will usually do it.

With Vex, they have lots of wheels and tank treads and spur gears and roller chain and omni wheels and bevel gears and differential gears and worm gears and high strength chain and grippy tank tread attachments and intake rollers and motors that don't burn out and a huge variety of metal parts and linear glides and the list goes on and on.

Whether there is a FIRST or VEX banner at the competition, the kids still have fun and still get inspired. (And isn't that the whole point of this? To inspire kids?) So it comes down to the kits (and costs), and practically everyone I've talked to (students and mentors) gives the advantage to Vex in both categories hands down.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

I have a good idea of the cost difference but what about things like what the kids learn and how much fun they had?

This is the part of the question that I would like to learn more about. It would be nice to have more of the students from the VRC and FTC teams contribute to the discussion.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This is the part of the question that I would like to learn more about. It would be nice to have more of the students from the VRC and FTC teams contribute to the discussion.

Jane,

While more student feedback would be awesome, I think that getting a handle on the student perspective of fun/learning alone won't tell us what we really need to know due to the largest intangible of all ... the teachers/mentors involved.

The right adult leadership can make carrying a full refrigerator up a muddy mountainside a tremendously fun and enriched learning experience. I've been fortunate enough in my life to be around a few of these folks. So, the questions then become,

"What is the "energy/resource expense" for those adult leaders involved over time?"

"How long can the adult leaders involved sustain that effort?"

"How many students are inspired/positively touched each year through that effort?"

Like I've said in the past, it depends on what you want to achieve with your program and what experiences you have. If you're already deeply invested in equipment and training in Tetrix/NXT then you'd probably think about staying the course. If you're already deeply invested in equipment and training in VEX then you'd probably think about staying that course.

If you're running teams only and aren't looking for larger amounts of equipment to affect curriculum, then the FTC program seems like it might work well.

If you want to embed robotics in curriculum, VEX wins hands down right now. FTC currently lacks curriculum resources and affordable bulk purchasing options to put the hands-on experience in the classroom at an acceptable level IMHO. Even with FTC curriculum resources being developed at two wonderful places right now, without the ability to deploy affordable equipment to schools, such curriculum with go underutilized.

Couple that with the fact that you need a laptop/workstation for every FTC robot and management software to run multiple robots simultaneously and you have a confluence of hurdles that can stifle even the most energetic of teachers and classroom situations. COMPARE that to VEX in the classroom setting where up to 9 robots can be run simultaneously, right out of the box, without intensive programming, for a mild investment in two $50 crystal kits.

I'd love to stand here and tell you that the "FIRST program" is the best option of these two. Most of you have no idea how many sleepless nights I've spent thinking about what "might have been" and how often I've regretted not being able to get some folks to see a few things.

However, right now, if you're a BRAND NEW team looking at these two options, VEX is without a doubt your best investment. Right now, if you're a brand new school deciding between these two platforms to use in curriculum, VEX is the best choice by far - three purchasable curriculum options, gobs of free curriculum resources available over the web, an enriched Inventors Guide, etc.

In the end, we're all serving EXACTLY the same mission, so I begrudge no one's efforts in any direction at all. However, when anyone asks my opinion, I always talk about positively affecting the largest number of students possible and right now VEX is the better, more flexible, more affordable way to get it done on the "intermediate" scale. I love my FRC team, and FIRST's ideals, so to me the FRC/VEX combination in a school-based model is tough to beat pound-for-pound on learning, fun, and inspiration.

namaste