Drill/Mill or Lathe/Mill attachment for small shop area

[Coach Norm]

Our team has a very small shop area. This is our third year in FRC. We are trying to expand our shop and tools for the team. Our shop area is very limited so I am looking to get what is best in terms of maximizing our shop space as well as benefit our team the most.

We are looking at a drill/mill or a combination lathe/mill.

Any suggestions or advice is welcome.

Norman

[R.C.]

One question:

-What is your price range?

-RC

[sanddrag]

I would avoid combination machines. From what I've seen, most of them are far superior in quality to individual machines. In my opinion, you would be best with a small drill press, a small mill, and a small lathe, separately. Unless you work in a clothes closet, you should be able to fit it it. The combination machines give you the capability of each, but not anywhere near as well as the individual machines. The combo machines do everything "sort of."

If money is tight, you'd be best with a drill press and lathe first (and even a sander and buffer), and then a mill later on. Also, you need to factor the cost of the tooling, which could easily reach half the cost of the machines (or more) depending on what you're looking to do. As for which machine to buy, they always say to buy the largest you can afford/fit, because there will eventually be some job that will be too large for the machine had you bought the smaller one.

I would also say a good size arbor press is something many FIRST teams can benefit from.

So, how much to spend, and what size shop?

[EricH]

David, did you mean inferior in quality?

It would depend on your price range, but I'd go for a drill press first. It is theoretically possible to turn it into a crude lathe (though most people frown on this...). You probably won't really need a mill for most things, though if you have the budget for it, I might do that.

Here's a tool rundown:

Drill press: main purpose is to drill accurate holes. Doesn't take large side loads very well, unlike its cousin, the mill.

Mill: Can be used as a drill press, but you can move the part to exactly where you want it. Also used to face parts, cut out weight in cool patterns, and make sure that you get the part exactly right. If you have the budget for one of these, and its tooling, skip the drill press entirely.

Lathe: Used to make round parts. Can be used as a drill, under the right conditions.

Of the three, I'd say start with a good drill press, unless you have the budget for a mill and its tools.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by EricH

David, did you mean inferior in quality?

Yes, often inferior in quality, and in certainly capacity as well.

Originally Posted by EricH

Mill: Can be used as a drill press, but you can move the part to exactly where you want it. Also used to face parts, cut out weight in cool patterns, and make sure that you get the part exactly right. If you have the budget for one of these, and its tooling, skip the drill press entirely.

When I just need to drill a quick hole, I often find myself going for the drill press even when I have a mill in the shop. I don't have to put a chuck in it or raise or lower the knee or head, and the table is often more convenient. I find it quite handy to have both.

As for space concerns, I fit a small lathe, mill, drill press, welder, 13 drawer cabinets, two fullsize upright cabinets, 5 feet of under-bench cabinets, and 6 feet of usable bench space in a 7x12 foot area. It can be done.

[DonRotolo]

As already stated, a combination machine does many things, all poorly.

First get a decent drill press. It need not be fancy, large or new - used Craftsman bench drill presses can be had for $100. When you have the choice, go for the highest quality you can afford. A 50-year old Delta is far superior to a brand new Grizzly or Jet.

If you do not have a power sander, get a small, inexpensive one. Harbor freight has a belt/disk sander that should be fine. You'll use this as much as the drill press, honest. Just remember, it's not a saw.

A lathe is a luxury, but a nice one. Again, buy the best quality you can afford. Get one that can cut screw threads, and good tooling. Again, a good used South Bend or Atlas will generally be far superior to a Chinese one brand new. Of course, beware of a bad used one that's all sloppy, it will produce poor quality work. You can do light milling with the proper attachment. You don't need a large lathe, 6" swing and 18" bed will handle 99% of your needs. Think Atlas 618/Craftsman 101.

Even more of a luxury is a mill, but here we're talking an item that takes up a few square feet and costs $1000 or more. We've managed to avoid needing a mill almost every year.

A small band saw, dedicated to Aluminum, is also a good investment.

You can get CNC versions of these, or perhaps DRO (Digital read Out), but in my opinion I want the kids to learn how to run these machines by hand, not let the computer decide the feed rate but have them learn the 'feel' themselves. I think they learn more that way, even if there are more "learning experiences" (mistakes).

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

We've managed to avoid needing a mill almost every year.

As neat as a mill is, we seem to hardly ever use the one in the fab shop we use for the robot. This year we did not use it once. We did use the lathe a lot.

And every thing else Don said....I agree.

[Wayne TenBrink]

I have a mini-mill that does an adequate job on aluminum. Using a standard drill chuck, it does very well as a drill press. Several distributors market the same basic machine, which costs around $550. Just Google "mini mill" for links. With any mill, make sure you get a GOOD mill vise.

If you just have a drill press, I recommend getting a vise with 2 axis travel (X-Y) to hold the work piece. That way, you can actually locate holes reasonably close to where you want them. In a pinch, you can put a small mill cutter in a drill press with an X-Y vise and use it for light mill work on aluminum.

[Dick Linn]

There's some info here about the mini lathes and mills. http://www.mini-lathe.com/

For an inexpensive lathe, I prefer the 8 x 12 (or 8 x 14), rather than the 7 x 12. More info here: http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/8x12lathe/index.htm

He also has info on some of the mills - X2 & X3. For drilling and light milling, they would do nicely.

Do look around locally for used American iron. I got a Wells-Index mill recently for $950. It needs a few hundred in parts and a 3-phase converter, but is in very nice shape for a 1969 machine. However, it is large and weighs about 2,100 pounds.

I also saw a little Craftsman or Atlas lathe the other day, offered for $25. But with three lathes already, I passed.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

For an inexpensive lathe, I prefer the 8 x 12 (or 8 x 14), rather than the 7 x 12. More info here: http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/8x12lathe/index.htm

Same here. I have this lathe at home. HF often runs 20% off coupons to take a nice chunk off the price. For what it costs, I find it to be adequate for all my lathe work needs, and the quality to be pretty decent, given its origin. I think a majority of the lathe parts a typical FRC team makes would be do-able on this machine. Having this machine is certainly a large improvement over none at all.

I also have an X1 mill with the extended X and Y axes (more travel and larger table than the X2), and converted to CNC. The quality on this machine is not as high as on the 8x12 lathe, but it can still turn out some nice smaller parts in delrin and aluminum once dialed in. You just have to learn to work within its limitations. What's interesting is that by CNCing a small machine (even on the cheap, DIY) you really get a lot more capability. You can drill several holes very accurately, the same every time, in 20 parts, faster than marking it out and doing it on a drill press. You can mill larger holes for bearings, at center-to-center tolerances adequate for gearboxes. You can take several passes at lighter cuts (as required on a small machine) to do a thicker part. You can do nice shaped contours, and lightening pockets. Just don't really expect to do much cutting in any steel on a small machine.

A step up from a small tabletop/benchtop mill would be something either like this or like this. 968 has one similar to this and while it has decent size and power, moving the head on the round column is a major pain. A square column or knee mill is a much better choice.

Does your team have a good miter saw and blade? I think that's essential to an FRC team.

[Dick Linn]

Sanddrag,

I knew you had that lathe. I read your opinion before I bought one

Now I just need to get a 3-phase converter and get our Clausing 12 x 24 hooked up. I picked up a little Craftsman locally for $100. and it needs some cleanup and checkout. Not sure the back gear is quite right.