[BB]: Beta Hardware

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Abrakadabra

<soapbox>

It is amazing to me how some people on this thread are reacting so negatively to change. Not just this year, but even last year, where the benefits of the new control system were even more obvious, it was the same folks making the same complaints. And again, they were generally doing all their griping before all the details were known.

It is even more amazing to me that these people represent teams that have built their reputation on building state-of-the-art, cutting edge robots. Honestly, I really have to wonder how much better these teams might be if they didn't have to deal with so much negativity in their midst.



</soapbox>

The benefits of the control system were obvious? Maybe to you, but not to a lot of other people. I value reliability over everything else, and the initial release was anything but reliable. Contrast that with a system that had been bulletproof for nearly a decade, which we actually received new hardware for every single year, and I'm still convinced that no matter how superior the technology may be, the IFI system is superior in usability. We're still paying $6000 every year, and now we're getting $1000 less in electronics than before. That's a huge negative.

In short, I don't like change, just for change's sake, or change forced by politics. Let's not kid ourselves. FIRST did not switch to the cRIO because it is superior. They switched because of politics.

P.S. As you may have noticed by our results on the field, 254 seems to be doing just fine.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Cory

Can we have IFI back now?

This is the new driver station? Seriously?

I imagine the final version will at the very least have some kind of shiny enclosure. I edit:hope that the DS is not an application running on top of an OS either.

Can't say I don't miss IFI though...

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I bet that the DS is not an application running on top of an OS either.

Can't say I don't miss IFI though...

Doesn't LabView have to run on an OS though?
The screen in the picture looks similar to the "Dashboard" in 2009, but not quite, which is why I'm assuming its some sort of Driver Station code.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I imagine the final version will at the very least have some kind of shiny enclosure. I edit:hope that the DS is not an application running on top of an OS either.

Can't say I don't miss IFI though...

I imagine FIRST isn't going to change the externals of the classmate at all.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I imagine the final version will at the very least have some kind of shiny enclosure. I edit:hope that the DS is not an application running on top of an OS either.

Can't say I don't miss IFI though...

I don't see how, when we've already been told we're getting the classmate PC. There's no way this is getting repackaged into something less kludgy. Maybe they'll have all the accessories inside a project box or something. Hopefully this year they have the foresight to include some pullup resistors so we can use non USB joysticks without making everything even more kludgy...

Whatever though. I just hope it works. There's going to be a LOT of standing around for 3 minutes waiting for these to reboot so a match can start if it's anything like last year.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Cory

Can we have IFI back now?

This is the new driver station? Seriously?

Amen.

Significant advantages of this please? Thanks.

[Jared Russell]

I think you guys are jumping the gun big time. Assuming they put the USB hub, E stop, and I/O breakout into a single, well-designed enclosure, what's the big deal? How many teams don't mount the operator controls to a nice piece of lexan, plywood, or something else?

As far as startup time, the clamshell PC boots from a solid state flash disk and usually runs a stripped down Linux distribution - we're talking 15-20 seconds, tops. (Though if they make us run Windows XP, I will cry.)

So what are the advantages of this arrangement? To some extent, it all hinges on what aspects of the Classmate they let you utilize. But here's my stab:

1) The clamshell has built-in WiFi. We could potentially eliminate the need for a router.

2) The clamshell has a battery. Hauling AC adapters around to demos has gotten pretty old.

3) The clamshell has audio playback, a microphone, and an optional camera. There is opportunity for innovation here. Imagine a game where in "autonomous" mode you could talk to or gesture to your interface without touching buttons.

4) The clamshell is much more capable a computer than even the cRIO. If they let you write code for it, you can suddenly offload some complicated (computer vision) tasks.

5) Every team now has access to a sort of dashboard app without having to pony up their own laptop. This helps not only the teams, but also potentially FTAs and staff to troubleshoot problems from the driver stations.

6) Lastly, it says the clamshell has a water resistant keyboard. Perfect for dealing with all of the splashing from next years' water game.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I think you guys are jumping the gun big time. Assuming they put the USB hub, E stop, and I/O breakout into a single, well-designed enclosure, what's the big deal? How many teams don't mount the operator controls to a nice piece of lexan, plywood, or something else?

This is what I meant by shiny enclosure.

[Joe Ross]

Last year, many people had trouble updating the firmware on the DS (you needed a "magic" flash drive to get it to work). This year updating should be trivial.

Last year, many people had issues with ESD damaging the DS. As the classmate was designed as a consumer device, it shouldn't have any ESD issues. Hopefully the same can be said about the add-on boards.

Last year, the DS took time to boot. Since the classmate has a battery, you should be able to have it booted long before you reach the field.

Last year, you couldn't tether the robot on the field without access to AC power for the DS. Since the classmate has a battery, that shouldn't be an issue.

Last year, FIRST had to deal with Kwikbyte for firmware updates. Since it looks like a LabVIEW application, that shouldn't be an issue.

Last year, you couldn't use an Xbox 360 controller. Presumably, that wouldn't be an issue with the classmate.


Overall, I heard a lot of dissatisfaction with the DS last year. This is FIRST's way of addressing that dissatisfaction. If the DS wasn't really so bad last year, I hope that people will think twice about complaining about anything and everything, because the result might just be worse.

[Andrew Schuetze]

Thanks for suggesting people compare the ups and downs of last year to what we see in one photo of a beta system for this year. All too often forums such as this get off on a rant of dislikes.
What I hear that I like so far is quicker boot times, no need for an AC adapter, no wifi router, possible choice of USB joysticks, more internal control of updates ... MORE Robust without a significant increase in complexity. In fact it seems to have gotten less complex.

[AustinSchuh]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

Last year, you couldn't use an Xbox 360 controller. Presumably, that wouldn't be an issue with the classmate.

I think that the new DS works well, but I'm not holding my breath for Xbox 360 support.
Last year's DS ran Linux. Linux has support for Xbox 360 drivers (I use 360 controllers under linux fairly often). Last year's DS didn't have 360 support. So, even though the DS was capable of supporting 360 controllers, it didn't. If this year's DS runs Linux, it'll be in exactly the same boat. Capable of supporting them, but not required.

On a separate note, I'm hoping that they enable Force Feedback on the joysticks. For example, it would have been useful to use force feedback to tell when the wheels were slipping, or the hopper was jammed, or use a force feedback steering wheel and have it tell the driver something about how easy it is to turn, or ... The possibilities are endless.

[Andrew Schuetze]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I think you guys are jumping the gun big time.
So what are the advantages of this arrangement? To some extent, it all hinges on what aspects of the Classmate they let you utilize. But here's my stab:



5) Every team now has access to a sort of dashboard app without having to pony up their own laptop. This helps not only the teams, but also potentially FTAs and staff to troubleshoot problems from the driver stations.

I really like the potential for this, as a resource and mentor stretched team we could never develop a dashboard. It was just two years ago that 418 recieved an innovation award for a labview dashboard system. Now every rookie might have such a system.

[lynca]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I think you guys are jumping the gun big time. Assuming they put the USB hub, E stop, and I/O breakout into a single, well-designed enclosure, what's the big deal?

I agree, we can't shoot the messenger. Let's work with the classmate to improve it's functionality so we can achieve the robustness of the 2004 IFI driver station. Let's start with supporting all the basic functionality including in previous years systems (I/O, E-stop, USB Hub). Then let's try to optimize boot load time to less than 1 minute.

Is there anyway to put the classmate in standby mode so the time to start is less than 5 seconds ?

Originally Posted by Jared341

3) The clamshell has audio playback, a microphone, and an optional camera. There is opportunity for innovation here. Imagine a game where in "autonomous" mode you could talk to or gesture to your interface without touching buttons.

I'm not too worried about microphones or cameras, but audio playback would be useful.

Originally Posted by Jared341

4) The clamshell is much more capable a computer than even the cRIO. If they let you write code for it, you can suddenly offload some complicated (computer vision) tasks.

Off-loading processing to a remote driver station seems inefficient for a real-time OS on a robot.

Originally Posted by Jared341

5) Every team now has access to a sort of dashboard app without having to pony up their own laptop. This helps not only the teams, but also potentially FTAs and staff to troubleshoot problems from the driver stations.

Having basic terminal access would be nice so we can monitor the system processes. I would trade all dashboard visuals for reliability and speed.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by lynca

Is there anyway to put the classmate in standby mode so the time to start is less than 5 seconds ?

This is probably why the Classmate was picked; you could potentially just throw open the screen and you're good. I'm really excited for the Classmate DS this year and think it's a great solution to a lot of complaints a lot of FIRST had.

My memory's fuzzy, but I don't remember getting a plastic "stop" button in the beta test kit last year...

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by lynca

Off-loading processing to a remote driver station seems inefficient for a real-time OS on a robot.

That all depends. There is enough bandwidth available (in the WiFi specs, but not in the current FIRST packet restrictions) to go around for 6 robots to send small, compressed images in full duplex and still have quite a bit of safety factor.