[BB]: KOP info

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Madison

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

I'm wondering if they're going to go ahead and play 'stupid' and assume veteran teams can't do simple math.

I'm pretty disappointed to see a lot of the stuff we won't be getting. Even the Axis camera..? (I'm gonna go ahead and assume we can use other types of USB cameras though)

No Victors..?'

1 battery..? (Not to mention a huge pile of batteries from the 08 season were from a bad batch that we had to throw out with leaking cells)

No compressor..? (Hoping we can just buy a 10 dollar one from HF)

Thanks FIRST, you're the best. (Reminisces about the trusty old IFI days)

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Madison

Is there anyone around here that can speak to how these changes will make the 2010 season significantly better for their team or region? I'm sure many, if not all, of the teams that are going to shell out the extra $2000 required for all of these omitted parts would HAPPILY pay an extra $1000 for registration and give the remaining $1000 to a team in need.

Excellent Question Madison. I am going to take a stab at it.

One thing we should all keep in mind is that realistically we are all playing with donated money (some more than others). Some teams work really hard and sell things to fund their teams (or pay out of pocket), but then still go to a Regional that is not funded by registration fees, but by corporate sponsors directly through the Regional or indirectly subsidized through donations to FIRST.

My guess is where this "helps" most of us is it allows for the FRC to continue on in a reasonable fashion. Unlike other "fairness" rules and attempts that often have backfired, I think this was probably a legitimate compromise of trying to balance the FRC Budget. I know some folks are going to quote surplus budgets, but let's remember they are looking into the long term. If heating costs go up, and your paycheck goes down, do you continue to keep the house at 75F in December (and then freeze in Feb. when you run out of money), or do you drop the thermostat down to 68 and throw on a sweater?

(I understand that this is one of those government economics answers that would be excessively difficult to prove, but it is my gut feeling).

One of the great opportunities of a down economy are that for most of us, it helps us re-look at "needs" vs. "wants". While some "wants" have always been obvious (wanting to fly to Hawaii regional vs. driving to Detroit), others are less obvious. Your robot and thus your team "needs a control system". Teams "want to leave the old bot in tact".

Opportunities for this could be figuring out a design that is more transportable and more plug and play. I saw an interesting controls system "board" designed for OCCRA. The kids called it the "Brain Bucket". It was a plastic tub that had the IFI controller, and all the power electronics except the battery mounted to the bottom and sides. I think they re-used the "brain bucket" for years, and with about 50% of the wiring already done, it made wiring up a simple robot super quick and easy.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I agree it's been sold to teams inaccurately (it's not a price reduction), but if it saves money for some teams (i.e. if you don't need a compressor this year or don't ever demo your robot and can reuse the cRIO), then how is it a bad thing?

In short, that's how it can help teams.

The issue isnt that it isn't a price reduction for SOME people. The issue is that it is being sold as a wonderful thing for all teams when in reality it is only beneficial for a subset of teams. While this is a good thing for those teams it is a pain for teams that arent benefited by it. Additionally it allows FIRST to come out and say, "See look, we are saving you money, we are such great guys" Which is an incorrect statement and implies things that arent true, some of us have major issues with incorrect implications.

EDIT: Also, I suppose some people might be peeved that they arent saving money too.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I agree it's been sold to teams inaccurately (it's not a price reduction), but if it saves money for some teams (i.e. if you don't need a compressor this year or don't ever demo your robot and can reuse the cRIO), then how is it a bad thing?

In short, that's how it can help teams.

That's why I'm curious to see how many teams this really affects. At first glance, this appears to penalize a great majority of teams -- in terms of cost or function -- for the benefit of comparably few. Maybe that's not true.

If 100 teams would have dropped out in 2010 were it not for the reduced registration fee and 101+ teams spend an extra $2000 to maintain their status quo, there's money wasted. Again, I can't speak for everyone, but my team would be happier giving $1000 to any other FIRST team than to a for-profit business.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

You didn't care about the two 20 cent standoffs?

I was cutting people some slack as to not make the tally even worse.

P.S.
Remember too that plastic pneumatic fittings were not included in the KOP last year which I think makes it much harder on the rookies to even try pneumatics.

Don't forget about the SMC solenoid valves. Can you even buy such things online? SMC doesn't have an online store. You'd have to contact an SMC rep, right?

If you wanted to do a full accounting I noticed that there will be some additional costs for parts not mentioned, but that obviously won't be included in the kit either. Such as the pressure relief valve ($27.20) and the cRIO power connectors (not included BTW in our team's cRIO order).

These aren't supplied to ANY teams, correct? So they wouldn't belong on a additional veteran cost tally.

As January approaches, I hope FIRST will compile and release a complete document listing full manufacturer part numbers and ordering sources for all control system items not included in the veteran KOP. I think they can and will do better than the document they just released. It would be great if they also threw in information on all the pneumatic components that were left out of last year's kit.

Not being one to wait around for that to drop out of the sky, I've got a lot of links documented at http://controlsystem.neofra.com/2009...l-system-parts. This is where I went to compile much of the pricing I included in the spreadsheet I posted earlier. I'll do my best to refresh and add to the information on this site as I receive updates.

If anyone has any ordering sources for pneumatic items such as those Mark mentioned, or any other "important" electrical or pneumatic items that aren't included in the veteran kit (or at all), please PM me with information, and I will update the website.

[JaneYoung]

As January approaches, I hope FIRST will compile and release a complete document listing full manufacturer part numbers and ordering sources for all control system items not included in the veteran KOP. I think they can and will do better than the document they just released. It would be great if they also threw in information on all the pneumatic components that were left out of last year's kit.

This sounds like a concern that should be addressed directly to FIRST, Travis. It's valid.

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

These aren't supplied to ANY teams, correct? So they wouldn't belong on a additional veteran cost tally.

The two items I mentioned (the pressure relief valve ($27.20) and the cRIO power connectors) will be in the rookie KOP, but not in the veterans the way I read between the lines, because they are only used on devices that veterans won't be getting but rookies will.

The SMC solenoids can be ordered online, but probably have to be from a product catalog to get the specifics we need, mostly because of the 12v coils, rather than the more common 24v coils. That might mean a phone order from an on-line distributor.
E.g., we can order 12v SMC solenoids from a catalog--example: SMC Pneumatic Solenoid
2008's double solenoid was a: SY3240-6H-S (This translates to SY3000 series, 2-position single action, base mounting, 12VDC, L-type plug connector, surge suppressor)
The single-action solenoid was a: SY3140-6H-S
Each SMC solenoid also requires a base: SY3000-27-1T

[diviney]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I got $2105. See attached.

For those who came up with the $1400-range estimates, where are the differences between your tally and mine?

My number also doesn't account for any shipping charges.

Travis:

Thanks for taking the time to tally the cost difference. I believe you may have overlooked a critical (and reasonably expensive item). The Power Distribution module is of course required to provide the 24V to the cRIO, and it costs almost $200. This raises your hard tally to $2300. As you state, you did not include shipping, which I'm sure would be another hundred or two. We are almost up to $2500.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by diviney

Travis:

Thanks for taking the time to tally the cost difference. I believe you may have overlooked a critical (and reasonably expensive item). The Power Distribution module is of course required to provide the 24V to the cRIO, and it costs almost $200. This raises your hard tally to $2300. As you state, you did not include shipping, which I'm sure would be another hundred or two. We are almost up to $2500.

I didn't see the PD listed in the comparison chart. To me, this indicates that veterans will be receiving one in their KoP. Is this the conclusion that others have reached?

[johnr]

Isn't there a limit to how much you can spend on a bot? If you choose to not use last years parts/electronics , do you have to figure that cost into the bom or what ever it is called?

[jamie_1930]

Originally Posted by DRAKE343

A second year team may be at the greatest disadvantage.

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

The question is not whether a given team should get the extra inventory by way of the rookie kit, it is whether they can. If they are not allowed to, then the above is a moot point.

Personally, I think FIRST should have three kit options:
Rookie = Veteran + Control
Veteran = the standard hardware kit, minus the control system
Control = the control system

This way, anyone could opt to get an extra control system from one place, regardless of experience, instead of having to go around to 3-4 different vendors to piece it together or register as a rookie. But a veteran team without the money for another system can simply opt to do the Veteran kit, while one with enough to get three extra control systems could buy them (and hopefully give at least one of them to a nearby team who couldn't get an extra).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's not like this will really help. It will be good for one year, then you're SOL again, as you can only get one discounted cRIO. After that one year you're back to paying full price, and getting far, far less for your dollar than you did 2008 and prior.

Cory, you didn't really read my post, did you? The intent is that FIRST offers the kits. Rookie kits are the same as Veteran + Control, including pricewise. I didn't say anything about this ending after one year, either, or only being good for one control kit. You see what I'm saying?

[Chris is me]

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to artdutra04 again."

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

My understanding is that you get one single discounted cRIO. -ever-. Not yearly. Maybe I misinterpreted that statement when it was released.

[edit]My bad. It is once yearly.