A Request for transparency from FIRST

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

THERE ARE MANY OTHER PIECES THAT YOU BASICALLY WANT TO PURCHASE TO HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL MINI BOT. That is the point.
.

There, fixed it for ya. Make sure you seperate your needs and wants. Truly understanding NEEDS vs. WANTS can make for a much happier existence in both FRC and the "Real World" (not to be confused with "The Real World" or Jersey Shore which have needs and wants totally backwards).

Timing of update 1 vs. FIRST Choice ordering was a bit more legitimate of a complaint, but how many actually were effected by this versus the theoretical "people" that may have done that.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by IKE

Truly understanding NEEDS vs. WANTS can make for a much happier existence in both FRC and the "Real World" (not to be confused with "The Real World" or Jersey Shore which have needs and wants totally backwards).

What makes me truly sad is that I really WANT to see the 33 minibot score while producing little signs that say things like: float like a butterfly, zing like a bee. With wings. Seriously.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Am I the only person who thinks that the issues with FTC parts and the mini-bot this year was yet another example of a lack of transparency hurting teams?

If FIRST had come out and said "Hey, this next game will basically require FTC parts - you should account for that in your budget" - teams like mine would not be in the predicament they are now.

I feel like the MiniBot situation was made much worse because FIRST was by no means transparent about it.

Not a transparency issue Chris, just a decision that a lot of people aren't happy with.

Originally Posted by dlavery

Am I the only person that really thinks people should really, really READ and UNDERSTAND the manual and the options they have in front of them rather than endlessly whining about a non-issue?

The FTC parts that teams can use on their mini-bot are FREE. You have effectively already paid for them as part of your registration and they are virtually included as part of the KOP. All you have to do is get on FIRST Choice and have it sent to you.

If you are "budgeting" for large purchases of hundreds of dollars worth of Tetrix parts, then that is your fault for not taking advantage of the resources that have already been given to you. That is not FIRST's fault - it is yours.

-dave



.

I love the mini-bot idea. Love it because it gives us an excuse to get our old friends from FLL who moved to FTC this year involved again. What I don't like is that it is creating a perception of FIRST trying to force teams into FTC.

So, allow me, if I may be so bold, to venture a guess at the logic. I understand we had to have limits on the parts and I understand the logical choice was either add two more motors to the KOP -OR- make motors specific to this. Since we already have 13 motors in the KoP and by allowing any motors on the mini-bot would drastically change it (in an interesting way imho) we had to use specific motors. It is only logical to say, "hey who do we know who can donate these parts, oh the guys who we already work with..." Oh hey, added benefit, it promotes awareness of a different segment of the FIRST brand. The only question this leaves for me, why can't I build my mini-bot out of lego bricks?

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So, allow me, if I may be so bold, to venture a guess at the logic. I understand we had to have limits on the parts and I understand the logical choice was either add two more motors to the KOP -OR- make motors specific to this. Since we already have 13 motors in the KoP and by allowing any motors on the mini-bot would drastically change it (in an interesting way imho) we had to use specific motors. It is only logical to say, "hey who do we know who can donate these parts, oh the guys who we already work with..." Oh hey, added benefit, it promotes awareness of a different segment of the FIRST brand. The only question this leaves for me, why can't I build my mini-bot out of lego bricks?

A few thoughts:

Without being in on their brainstorming sessions, it is impossible for we mere plebians to know the reasoning behind every GDC decision... ....and it is unreasonable to expect them to explain all of them. (Or perhaps even some of them.)

I always assume, when I cannot deduce the reasoning behind a rule, that "it makes it harder" is the correct answer.

I am as cynical as can be. Truly, I always assume the worst when it comes to human motive. That said, geniuses such as Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, and Dave Lavery could make so much more money (and win so much more prestige) by doing almost anything else. They could also stroke their own egos in much easier ways... Thus, the "this is just a ploy to prop up FTC" arguments ring hollow to me.

OF COURSE they want FRC teams to get involved with FTC. I, personally, would rather see FTC as a "middle school" program and shunt FLL strictly to the elementary grades -- which will never happen as long as VEX is cheaper, mind.

But that's neither here nor there.

[JaneYoung]

Regarding recent frustrations, it doesn't make any sense to request transparency when we are wearing blinders. Doesn't work that way.

Jane

[RoboMom]

Each team in FIRST programs runs like their own little company with whatever plan is developed by them and given the cards they are dealt. However I would highly caution Against using the plan where the teachers and mentors inject large sums of their personal funds to prop up a team. The dynamics created by this often leaves a legacy and situation that is just not healthy. My experience with witnessing this scenario a few times over the past 10 years in FIRST leaves me with strong opinions on this.
Best wishes to all you hardworking teams this year!

[DonRotolo]

Hi folks.

OK, so you're unhappy that the GDC did not tell you -prior to kickoff - that you need money to buy parts you'll need to build a competitive robot.

You're kidding me, right?


Surely those complaining are from teams that use only what comes in the KoP and does not spend any other money during the year. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: FRC Costs Money. Spend it on this or that, but eventually, you need to spend it.

By the way: All you MUST buy graciously accept for free are 2 motors and one battery*. And that is only if you decide to build your own minibot.** So quit whining and labeling this a transparency issue, when it isn't.

*(I advise some spares, though).
**(In theory, as few as four per regional will suffice. Can you say "collaboration"?)

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

What was the reasoning behind not including that FTC kit in the KOP to begin with?

How about the motors and battery and such?

Teams that want to build multiple mini bots will HAVE to purchase these parts.

Are you telling me that one battery will last an entire build season and competition season?

How many FRC teams have one battery and one charger?

How many teams use exactly what's in the KOP and only that?

THERE ARE MANY OTHER PIECES THAT YOU BASICALLY NEED TO PURCHASE TO HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL MINI BOT. That is the point.

The FIRST choice kit is not enough. It's great that it is free. It's great that we get 30% off from another site.

Think about all the down time from ordering the parts from yet another site, the shipping costs, etc.

Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

By the way: All you MUST buy are 2 motors and one battery*. And that is only if you decide to build your own minibot.** So quit whining and labeling this a transparency issue, when it isn't.

No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.

FIRST Choice Tetrix Kit Contents
2 - Motor Mount, W739089
1 - Motor Shaft Hub, W739079
2 - DC Motor, W739083
1 - Gear Hub Spacers, W739090
1 - Tetrix Resource Kit, W731900
1 - Battery Charger, W739059
1 - 12V NiMH Rechargable Battery, W739057
1 - Power Switch, W739129

-dave



.

[buildmaster5000]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.



No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.



-dave



.

I totally agree with everything you have said, Dave. If everything was in the KOP we could just create "Erector Set Robotics" which would not be half as fun as FRC. FIRST has created a way for teams to get much of what they need for a reduced price (free) and the fact that teams are not taking advantage of this is by no means FIRST's fault.

[TubaMorg]

Wow it's very early in the build and people are already getting bent out of shape! Every year the robo-lawyers find something to get upset about, so why not mini-bots? In a couple of weeks we will start hearing about how some rule or another is patently unfair to such and such team. Then as the competitions approach out will come the competition scoring/alliance selection algorithm complaints. It's the same story every year and very predictable. In a very few rare cases, there is an actual flaw or oversight in the rules that are quickly dealt with (of course the corrections are criticised as well).

Our team takes a different approach:

1. We read and analyze the rules.
2. We build the best robot we can in the alloted time to complete the task we have chosen to accomplish within the framework of the game.
3. We show up at the Lonestar regional and compete as hard as we can until they say we can't any more.
4. Next year we do it again.

There are occasional logical flaws in the game that HAVE to be pointed out and in that case we should voice our opinions. MOST of the time, however, there are merely inconvient aspects of the game that upset people that seem to generate the most noise. We don't have time to waste on that stuff because we are cutting aluminum and bolting together our drive train!

[Molten]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.



No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.



-dave



.

I understand your rather close to the matter and that is why your so upset by all this. Please get rid of the condescending nature of your posts. Your posts are usually some of the best spoken and most interesting. You have many valid points, but I'd appreciate if you could make them in your usual demeanor. There is nothing to be gained by treating people like kids. If you want your message thought about and not just listened to, please acknowledge the community as adults even if you think they are acting childish.

Thanks,
Jason

PS: This is posted in public as a reminder to all that we should keep the forums civil.

[Libby K]

I don't care to get into discussions such as these because it serves no point.

However, I'd like to just repeat something Jane said a page or so ago.

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Regarding recent frustrations, it doesn't make any sense to request transparency when we are wearing blinders. Doesn't work that way.

Jane

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Libby K

I don't care to get into discussions such as these because it serves no point.

How does the discussion of topics relating to a letter that members of FIRST HQ openly responded to not serve a point?

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

How does the discussion of topics relating to a letter that members of FIRST HQ openly responded to not serve a point?

I didn't mean discussion of the letter, I meant discussion of the kit/FTC/all of this. I have no place in it. All I wanted was to reiterate Jane's statement - if we are so glued to our particular opinion about transparency/the kit/whatever it is we're arguing about, we're not getting anywhere by yelling at each other on the internet.

The letter is great, I meant no disrespect. Apologies if it came across that way.

[kevinhorn]

I would like to move away from the 2011 KoP and return to the broader subject of transparency.
I feel that FIRST has made a good faith effort to be more transparent over the last season. There have been improvements in the quality of communication and the lead time given to teams.

Below is a list of progress we have seen in the past two seasons. Perhaps I have over looked something. Perhaps I have overstated something. Please point out my oversight or exaggeration.

• Bills Blog has tried to give us a look ahead. An example; The Veteran /Rookie KoP differences .
• As Don mentioned Bill asked for suggestions on what we want to hear about at Championships.
• The rules actually have intent in some instances! I really hate guessing when I am inspecting someone's robot.
• Someone asked FIRST to bring back the FRC store and they did just that by giving us "FIRST Choice"
• Bill let us know about FIRST Choice months in advance and let us see the choices ahead of kickoff. (I don't believe this would have happened a few years ago.)
• First gave us a workable CAN system and has bent over backwards to let help teams understand what is allowed.
• At least in my case I feel that Kate read and heard my survey suggestions. Proper terminations, motor data etc.
  
  
  Perhaps we can't have transparency, but responding to the needs of teams seems pretty close.