Go to Post Remember that the reason that you do something should NEVER be for the sole purpose of winning an award. To paraphrase something said by one of the Hall of Fame teams: "You should choose to do something because it is fun and the right thing to do." - tim-tim [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 17:53
bobwrit's Avatar
bobwrit bobwrit is offline
//No Comment
AKA: ...
FRC #1977 (Loveland High Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 298
bobwrit is just really nicebobwrit is just really nicebobwrit is just really nicebobwrit is just really nicebobwrit is just really nice
Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

So, I think there are the two main categories(of mechanisms, strategy may vary) for this year(similar to shooter/dumper from last year). Kicking would be effective for getting the ball long range down the field/Getting the ball between zones. This would be useful in the case that you're robot was in the opposite alliance's zone. Pushing will be most useful to score the balls in the goal's(Gentler). Thoughts on the subject/Thoughts on which one will be more widespread this year?
__________________

FRC Team 1977 Alumni

Has Attended:2008 Colorado regional
2009 Colorado Kickoff
2009 Colorado Regional
2010 Colorado Kickoff
2010 Colorado Regional




The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!"(I found it!), but rather, "Hmm.... That's funny" ---Isaac Asimov
Chance favors the prepared mind ---Louis Pasteur
And you can tell me, that I can't make a diffrence because I'm just one, but one is all it takes to start it. And you can tell me, that I can't change the world because I'm too young, but I wont stand here and be your target. ---FM Static

Last edited by bobwrit : 10-01-2010 at 17:55. Reason: Spelling
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 18:25
,4lex S.'s Avatar
,4lex S. ,4lex S. is offline
University Mentor
AKA: Alex Strong
FRC #2702 (REBotics)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Posts: 195
,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of,4lex S. has much to be proud of
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I don't think you need to compromise at all. I would guess that all you need to do to score short range is drive a ball into the goal. Having a kicker while still maintaining this ability should not be too challenging. Even a variable power kicker to modify your range should be not too bad to design.
__________________
University of Waterloo Mechanical Engineering Class of 2014- 2B School Term
University of Waterloo Formula SAE Race Team 2010-Eternity
FRC 2702: REBotics 2011 Mentor ::: FRC 1006: Fast Eddie Robotics 2005-2009 Alumni ::: FLL 4050: 2004 Alumni

  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 18:34
Mtg Ruler Mtg Ruler is offline
Registered User
FRC #1986 (Team Titanium)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Lee's Summit, MO
Posts: 21
Mtg Ruler is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I see kicking as the best way to get the balls into the goals, even in your own zone, because then you dont have to spend the time to move to the goal, then move back to get another ball.

for regionals, I expect there to be a wide range of kickers, but still many teams will push the balls (either to a really bad kicking design, or no kicking mechanism at all). Once the championships roll around, i think there will be more kickers than pushers.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 18:45
Robotbug's Avatar
Robotbug Robotbug is offline
Lovely user. =D
AKA: Kaela.
FRC #0753 (High Desert Droids.)
Team Role: Photography
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4
Robotbug is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I think that kicking would be more popular because by pushing you have to move very close to the goal, and there is always that chance that pushing would not get it into the goal.

So kicking for the win. =]
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 18:52
Phoenix Spud's Avatar
Phoenix Spud Phoenix Spud is offline
Everyone. Everywhere.
FRC #3132 (Thunder Down Under)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 702
Phoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond reputePhoenix Spud has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

What about a shooter? I think that this might be hard since we can't hold a ball, but I am sure some teams could come up with something!

I agree that "kickers" (or robots that can "physically repel the ball using some mechnical device") will be much better than just "pushers." However, in the offence zone, I think pushers might do OK. It will be interesting to see what happens in week 1.
__________________
Sarah Heimlich
Outreach Mentor | Business Mentor
FIRST® TEAM 3132
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 18:54
Locke64 Locke64 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0063
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PA
Posts: 13
Locke64 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I think a more important question to as would be angled kicks or horizontal kicks(rolls)?
I'd imagine rolling would be more accurate and easier to get into the goals, but it may have trouble with the bumps where angled kicks could clear them easily.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 19:24
Kage's Avatar
Kage Kage is offline
1st year junior mentor :)
AKA: Kage
FRC #0238 (Cruisin' Crusaders)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 125
Kage is just really niceKage is just really niceKage is just really niceKage is just really nice
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I had that same "angle versus flat" idea...and was thinking of there was any way to change the angle of the contact surface on the "kicker"...im pretty stumped right now, but I guaruntee its possible
__________________

GRAB LIFE BY THE JOYSTICKS!
team member: 4 years
Mentor: soon to be 1
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 19:41
DiehardCybercard's Avatar
DiehardCybercard DiehardCybercard is offline
zaba do de da, FIRST
no team (AndyMark)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: West Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 133
DiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud of
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotbug View Post
I think that kicking would be more popular because by pushing you have to move very close to the goal, and there is always that chance that pushing would not get it into the goal.

So kicking for the win. =]
i agree. Ill use an example from lunacy to back up kickers. Our robot had a conveyor belt to pick up empty cells and deliver them to the fueling stations. even though we were right there sometimes when we ran the conveyor we still missed. When you only have so man seconds to complete a task its imperative to do ti right the first time, and quickly. when you get down to it the time spent pushing seems to me a great deal more than kicking. if you have a kicker and miss you can easily get another ball and kick from that new location, where as with a pusher you have to drive all the way back to the goal.

Of course I could go to the boiler maker regional and see a team with the most beastly pusher and they win the whole thing, but I do not see that as likely.
__________________
Brett Heininger
AndyMark, Inc. Web & Media
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 19:44
DiehardCybercard's Avatar
DiehardCybercard DiehardCybercard is offline
zaba do de da, FIRST
no team (AndyMark)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: West Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 133
DiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud of
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke64 View Post
I think a more important question to as would be angled kicks or horizontal kicks(rolls)?
I'd imagine rolling would be more accurate and easier to get into the goals, but it may have trouble with the bumps where angled kicks could clear them easily.
rolls! a good point. as with soccer, and golf, and many other sports with balls, SPIN has a great deal of influence on behavior of said balls. SPIN aught to be an item teams look into if they plan to kick and or roll.
__________________
Brett Heininger
AndyMark, Inc. Web & Media
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 19:47
martin417's Avatar
martin417 martin417 is offline
Opinionated old goat
AKA: Martin Wilson
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Buford, GA
Posts: 719
martin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Spud View Post
What about a shooter? I think that this might be hard since we can't hold a ball, but I am sure some teams could come up with something!
Where did you get the idea that we can't hold the ball? The way I read the rules, the only prohibition is against "carrying" the ball. In the rules, "carrying" is defined as "POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD" So as long as the ball stays in contact with the field, you can "hold" it as long as you want. I would recommend being careful climbing ramps while holding though, it would be difficult to keep the ball in contact with the field at all times during a ramp portage...
__________________
Former Mentor Team 1771
Former mentor Team 4509

Last edited by martin417 : 10-01-2010 at 20:07.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 19:50
DiehardCybercard's Avatar
DiehardCybercard DiehardCybercard is offline
zaba do de da, FIRST
no team (AndyMark)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: West Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 133
DiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud ofDiehardCybercard has much to be proud of
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
Where did you get the idea that we can't hold the ball? The way I read the rules, the only prohibition is against "carrying" the ball. In the rules, "carrying" is defined as "POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD" So as long as the ball the ball stays in contact with the field, you can "hold" it as long as you want. I would recommend being careful climbing ramps while holding though, it would be difficult to keep the ball in contact with the field at all times during a ramp portage...
the BALLS cannot extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMITER <r19>

as long as you abide by that you can "hold"
__________________
Brett Heininger
AndyMark, Inc. Web & Media
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 20:16
karatekid's Avatar
karatekid karatekid is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cole
FRC #0662 (Rocky Mountain Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 120
karatekid has a spectacular aura aboutkaratekid has a spectacular aura aboutkaratekid has a spectacular aura about
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kage View Post
I had that same "angle versus flat" idea...and was thinking of there was any way to change the angle of the contact surface on the "kicker"...im pretty stumped right now, but I guaruntee its possible
I think you could accomplish changing the contact piece by having the contact piece have different possible shapes to hit the ball. Then, have a motor rotate the contact piece to change the contact shape.
__________________
YOU JUST LOST THE GAME!
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 20:54
ssa3512 ssa3512 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Steve
FRC #2537 (RAID)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 11
ssa3512 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

I had an interesting thought regarding kicking, especially kicking at an angle to clear bumps. The ball is ~9 inches in diameter, and the bumpers extend ~3.5 inches off the frame of the robot starting at 10 inches off the ground. This leaves about one inch of space between the bumper and ball. The bumper extends about 1/3 of the diameter of the ball. This is all well and good, but if you were to add a concave area underneath the bumper to help maintain control of the ball you add an additional 3 inches underneath the bumper. The ball is now 2/3 underneath the bumper and trying to get enough lift under it to clear the bumps may be difficult due to the ball hitting the bumper. What are your thoughts on this?
__________________
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 21:42
Nurnburger Nurnburger is offline
Registered User
FRC #0100
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 11
Nurnburger is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Your frame perimeter is supposed to be the part that hits the wall first were you to hit a wall without bumpers on. Therefore, I don't think it would be legal to attach anything onto the underside of the bumpers. I don't know the rule number, but there's one that says you can extend past the frame perimeter to the bumper perimeter for two seconds every two seconds. So if you wanted to attach anything that controls the ball that way, it would have to be attached to the frame and then actuate outward.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2010, 21:46
ssa3512 ssa3512 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Steve
FRC #2537 (RAID)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 11
ssa3512 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing

Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.
__________________
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pushing Play Without Pushing Play Res0lu7ion 3D Animation and Competition 3 12-12-2008 15:05
Poll: Dumper effectiveness at Championship The Lucas Championship Event 3 23-04-2006 00:33
Effectiveness of Casters ND4SPDLSC Technical Discussion 35 26-01-2004 23:08
Kicking a robot's bottom... archiver 2001 5 24-06-2002 00:17
H.E.R.O. Still alive and kicking. archiver 2001 0 23-06-2002 23:57


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi