Withholding limits and GP

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by EricH

No. 6 weeks is long enough to be crazy. Some of us happen to like our sanity whenever we aren't building robots.

But also note that this doesn't means teams don't like improving or even drastically changing their design throughout the season. Just think of all the teams who changed their shooters to dumpers last season.

We're not spending really late nights in the shop after we ship, but we will be making several different types of kickers and other endeffectors to test out in Trenton.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Karthik

We received the same email from our Regional Director, at 2:12 PM.

Your Regional Director is wrong. See this Q&A, which addresses this topic. If there is still any question, please post this to the Official Q&A immediately so that this can be addressed officially, and the mistaken information from the RD can be corrected.

-dave



.

[Bochek]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Your Regional Director is wrong. See this Q&A, which addresses this topic. If there is still any question, please post this to the Official Q&A immediately so that this can be addressed officially, and the mistaken information from the RD can be corrected.

-dave



.

I am on it

Edit: Done!

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Steve W

According to Richard Yasui the FIRST Robotics Administrator for TDSB, he made a call to FIRST who said that the robot must be shipped. I am totally confused now. Yes there is a 65 lb withholding of fabricated parts but the rules state

"<R26> During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and the ROBOT shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the COMPONENTS and MECHANISMS required to complete their ROBOT. They are encouraged to use all the materials, sources and resources available to them that are in compliance with the rules of the 2010 FRC. There is no limit to the amount of time that may be put into this effort, other than via the realities of the calendar. When the ROBOT shipment deadline arrives, all work on the ROBOT must cease and the ROBOT must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) must be crated or bagged (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4 (with the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE).

The red is my highlight. If all work on the robot must cease then how can one withold the whole robot?

The "exception" at the end is an exception for all of <R26>.

[Steve W]

I think that FIRST, of which the GDC is part of, should release a clarification of the rules as they are not all on the same page.

As stated on other occasions by FIRST, the rules are the rules. The Q&As are not the final say. The director that forwarded the email was sent an official (an email from FIRST) document saying that the robot must be shipped. Unless the rules are changed I still believe that the original stated rules should be followed.

[OptimusPrime]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I think that FIRST, of which the GDC is part of, should release a clarification of the rules as they are not all on the same page.

As stated on other occasions by FIRST, the rules are the rules. The Q&As are not the final say. The director that forwarded the email was sent an official (an email from FIRST) document saying that the robot must be shipped. Unless the rules are changed I still believe that the original stated rules should be followed.

My understanding is that the purpose of the Q&As are to clarify the rules or any changes to the rules (like upping the limit to 65 lbs) and thus represent a "final say" with regards to the interpretation of the rules.

...now I'm really confused

[EricH]

The rules say to ship the robot, sans a withholding allowance of up to 65 lbs of fabricated items.

Q&A says that anything you like can go in that withholding allowance.

The good folks at FRC HQ say that you have to ship the robot.

Q&A is for interpretation of the rules--their interpretation, and therefore the current official interpretation, is that you can hold back anything you like.

I think we need to bring this up to the attention of Q&A, and find out what's really supposed to happen.

"Hypothetical situation: A team builds its robot such that it weighs 60 lbs without the battery or bumpers. They choose to withhold the entire robot and ship the bumpers in the crate. FRC HQ has passed down a message that this is illegal, but this Q&A [link to the appropriate one] implies that this is fine. Which interpretation is correct?"

[OptimusPrime]

whoops... sorry... accidently deleted message...

all I posted is that the original question asked if "the robot" could be in the withholding allowance and the response was that "There are no requirements on what is included or excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE." implying that the robot can be withheld.

I see now you your question isn't about the robot per se but the conflicting messages. I agree... I'll ask the question.

[OptimusPrime]

question has been asked....

[exokiba]

Is the Drive Train included in the 65 pounds maximum weight we can bring??

[Kims Robot]

You can bring in whatever you want for fabricated items (including mechanisms), so as long as your drivetrain and anything else you bring are under 65lbs, you can withhold it. But be VERY careful, all your electronics and everything "assembled" or "fabricated" counts!

See here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...pdate%2011.pdf
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ht=withholding

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

You can bring in whatever you want for fabricated items (including mechanisms), so as long as your drivetrain and anything else you bring are under 65lbs, you can withhold it. But be VERY careful, all your electronics and everything "assembled" or "fabricated" counts!

See here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...pdate%2011.pdf
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ht=withholding

Kim has given you a good list of reading material on this topic. Here's one that was just published a few minutes ago.

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010...and-early.html

Originally Posted by Bill's Blog

Tomorrows Team Update will include the following: Rule , as amended in Team Update #11, permits the TEAM to utilize a 65 pound WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The choice of which FABRICATED PARTS of the ROBOT are included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is entirely up to the TEAM.

Please note that a ROBOT is an assembly of FABRICATED and COTS parts. Teams attending traditional events may not bring fully assembled ROBOTS to the competition. Teams attending bag & tag events may not bring a fully assembled ROBOT that has not been bagged. For both traditional and bag & tag events, teams may bring up to 65lbs of FABRICATED parts for use on the ROBOT, even if their ROBOT weighs less than 65lbs.

[exokiba]

ok thanks we thought that it would count just wanted to make sure though lol

[Chris is me]

I guess it's a bit off topic but there's no thread on the BB post.

I'm a little dissapointed that teams were told they could withold their entire robots, then they were told they couldn't, then they were told that someone was misinformed, and then a week after the issue was cleared up by the Q&A it's being turned around and invalidated again. That could screw up several teams planning on witholding their whole robot.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Kim has given you a good list of reading material on this topic. Here's one that was just published a few minutes ago.

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010...and-early.html

Now I am completely lost... that was clear as mud...

Please note that a ROBOT is an assembly of FABRICATED and COTS parts. Teams attending traditional events may not bring fully assembled ROBOTS to the competition. Teams attending bag & tag events may not bring a fully assembled ROBOT that has not been bagged. For both traditional and bag & tag events, teams may bring up to 65lbs of FABRICATED parts for use on the ROBOT, even if their ROBOT weighs less than 65lbs

.

I dont get it, is he saying that if your robot is just a drivetrain that weighs under 65lbs you cannot withhold it???

By the definition of Fabricated Item:

FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

A drivetrain is a fabricated mechanism... so wouldnt it count?!?!

My head hurts...