Do you like the seeding system?

[Bjenks548]

After reading a lot of this thread, one word keeps coming up, “collusion” could someone either post a definition or a link to where I could find what this means?

[rick.oliver]

Let me see if I've got this.

Loosing a close high-scoring match is rewarded more than winning a close low-scoring match.

Loosing a lopsided match is rewarded close to the same as winning a lopsided match.

The loser of a low scoring match that was made close by the winner committing many penalties is rewarded more than the winner.

The winner of a close, penalty-free match is rewarded almost three times as much as the loser.

I like this system; makes me want to play my best with the best to score as much as possible while going for the win.

[GGCO]

Originally Posted by rick.oliver

Let me see if I've got this.

Loosing a close high-scoring match is rewarded more than winning a close low-scoring match.

Loosing a lopsided match is rewarded close to the same as winning a lopsided match.

The loser of a low scoring match that was made close by the winner committing many penalties is rewarded more than the winner.

The winner of a close, penalty-free match is rewarded almost three times as much as the loser.

I like this system; makes me want to play my best with the best to score as much as possible while going for the win.

This might have been what the GDC was originally thinking, but the reality that there are so many loopholes and cracks in this system that it ends up doing more harm than ever intended.

Maybe teams won't take advantage of the system, and I know that in Michigan our district/championship structure fixes the problems with this for us. However, I still noticed that at TC there were many teams who hadn't won many matches doing very well in the rankings.

Since we already know how to take advantage of this system, I think the real question should be "what is the spirit of this rule?"

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Third, the scoring system is basically socialism.

Any time a governing body rewards someone who doesn't produce very much the same amount as someone who does, it is considered socialism.

I would check your definition of socialism. Under your definition the old system was also socialist! (oh no!...not socialism!..what could be worse!??!?!). If I'm with 111 and they scored 25 moonrocks while I sat in the corner and did nothing, we both got 2 ranking points, even though we did not 'produce' the same amount.

Not trying to start a debate, just pointing something out...

[Rizner]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Any time a governing body rewards someone who doesn't produce very much the same amount as someone who does, it is considered socialism. While socialism, and the GDC, may have had good intentions...both only encourage cheating and mediocracy.

I personally don't think the idea was to reward someone who doesn't produce very much, but instead rank teams in a way which takes into account how difficult their opponents are, which the previous ranking system didn't do.
Is this the right way to do that? Probably not, but I think that's what GDC's (or whoever made the final seeding decision's) goal was.

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by Rizner

I personally don't think the idea was to reward someone who doesn't produce very much, but instead rank teams in a way which takes into account how difficult their opponents are, which the previous ranking system didn't do.
Is this the right way to do that? Probably not, but I think that's what GDC's (or whoever made the final seeding decision's) goal was.

I agree with your perspective on the probable intent of the seeding system.

If everybody played the game to maximize their own score, then this seeding system would meet that intent very well, I think.

The issue is not the seeding system. If F.I.R.S.T. needs to take any feeback from this it is that the change should have been highlighted at Kickoff and discussed. It is a big change and you know, most engineers don't appreciate being surprized by a big change.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Third, the scoring system is basically socialism.

So the scoring system is a nationalized institution owned by the government paid for by taxes on all citizens for the general public good (not unlike the police, firefighters, public libraries, public education, mass transit, Interstate highways and the military)?

I don't like the new scoring system, but socialism it is not.

[ebarker]

Okie Dokie,

Lets try to stick to the merits of the debate and focus on the issues.

Perjorative labels isn't going to get us anywhere.

With all due respect !

[Isaac501]

This is probably the worst seeding system I have ever seen. When you have the ability to have a match where everyone (and not by collusion across the field) can play a 6v0 game, there is something HORRIBLY BROKEN about it. I am pretty unimpressed with the GDC this year. Between the ridiculous penalties and the utterly broken seeding system, I'd say this was the worst set of rules I've seen in my 7 years doing FIRST. The game would be AWESOME if these rules didn't suck the bloody life out of the game.

After losing 3, tying 1, winning 3, and our bot scoring 2 whole points the entire day, we were seeded 19th at the end of Friday. We could drive. Our kicker didn't work. Our hanger didn't work. We got like 15 penalties.

After we fixed most of the problems, we won two more, lost one more and then seeded 30th overall.

Win, and you are penalized. Do NOTHING and you are rewarded handsomely.

Explain to me, please, someone, how the hell this is possible.

[Martinez]

I find it Ironic that FIRST selected a game to be as inviting to the public as possible (Soccer just prior to the World Cup), and yet the results have been more frustrating or counterproductive then ever before...

People talk about Gracious Professionalism, and I know we all have different meanings for it, but I am seriously glad that my Dad was not there on Sat to see any 6v0 matches. He's been a fan of FIRST ever since I started and is an even greater fan of Soccer. I invited him to come out this weekend. He couldn't but did make the effort for Friday, driving three hours from Rome NY where to date my former High School still doesn't have a team.

If these facts doesn't seriously say there is something wrong about this game, then nothing does.

[Steve W]

I think before we jump all over the GDC we should consider that it may have come from higher up. Patent = Coopertition

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7507169.html

http://osdir.com/patents/Games/Metho...-07507169.html

[johnr]

Well, people patent germs and viruses that can kill the entire planet. Doesn't mean they have to use it.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I think before we jump all over the GDC we should consider that it may have come from higher up. Patent = Coopertition

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7507169.html

http://osdir.com/patents/Games/Metho...-07507169.html

I tried to keep an open mind through our first regional, however playing through it has convinced me that it is a bad idea. In fact, quite often in led to our alliances not cooperating, and changed gameplay for the worse.

When a game is designed so that if you know you are going to lose, your best strategy is 'take a dive' or worse, score for your opponent, IMHO that has destroyed the game and competition.

I hope "FIRST" does not continue with this system in the future.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

I tried to keep an open mind through our first regional, however playing through it has convinced me that it is a bad idea. In fact, quite often in led to our alliances not cooperating, and changed gameplay for the worse.

When a game is designed so that if you know you are going to lose, your best strategy is 'take a dive' or worse, score for your opponent, IMHO that has destroyed the game and competition.

I hope "FIRST" does not continue with this system in the future.

Please note that I do not like the system either. I am just bringing the point up that it may not have been the GDC that made the final call.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Please note that I do not like the system either. I am just bringing the point up that it may not have been the GDC that made the final call.

I understand. I quoted you to include the links. Since it is patented, I unfortunately expect this to continue.