Team update 16

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Live with the rules they came up with even if they suck.

Yup, let's make everyone suffer just so you can feel better about your regional selection choice.

Do we really need to take such drastic measures when the Week 1 bugs are usually relatively minor?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Run a test regional early with 'real scoring' to find bugs. Some areas have enough density of teams for this to be reasonable.

This one I like, and has been suggested by others. Let some of the well attended-well run pre-ships be run with the full official field and full official scoring. They already do this with one event, but it may be wise to do it with multiple events.

Have FIRST build some robots and play with them with 'real scoring' in the 9-months that they have to design the game.

They already do this. The problem is that, as brilliant as the GDC members are, they just can't match the manpower of every FIRST team combined. We will inevitably find things that they do not.

Live with the rules they came up with even if they suck.

So instead of fixing something that they felt was broken, they should just allow the other 4 weeks of regionals to play with the same broken rules? They should allow the seeding system to degenerate into cesspool of prearranged 6v0 matches? I hardly see how that would have been of benefit to anyone.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by Martinez

See, that's where FIRST believes their random alliance generator is infalliable, allowing such a one sided match never to happen. Ideally, with the alliance generator in place, blow outs should be rare or never happen. Of course, we all know the truth of that matter.

Galileo 2009 Qualification Match 42? (it's close enough, 45, 67, 111)

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Do you have a suggestion on how FIRST could do things better? Or do you just like to whine and complain?

the poster has one simple point. One set of teams play by a set of rules while everyone else plays by different rules. I would have loved to see teh GDC change this for Championships (and) MSC.

but what FIRST CAN do is possibly ship out he fields so that they may be used for scrimmage events. probably in the general area of where the Week 1 regionals would be held. and have the events run similar to one day regionals (each team gets a minimum 3-4 qm's, 4 alliances etc.). and collect feedback from the various events so that if need be, new rules can be implemented before the regional season starts. That way everyone plays by the same set of rules when points really count.

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Run a test regional early with 'real scoring' to find bugs. Some areas have enough density of teams for this to be reasonable.

If this were done, I'd like to see it done with mentor designed and driven kit robots or something other than robots and drivers that are going to compete. An extra free regional would give the attending teams a huge advantage in testing their design and training their drivers.

[Steve W]

Time to let this one cool for a bit. There has been enough "Good for the GDC" and FIRST sucks posts. Let's put this thread on hold till Friday morning and then I will open for discussion again.

[Steve W]

The thread is now open. Please be civil with the posts.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by anyheck

Changing the rules in the middle of the season = Fundamental FAIL.

At least the GDC changed the rules in what is widely regarded as a positive way after Week 1. I am happy and truly stunned (unprecedented) that they improved the seeding system to save the rest of the year. It could be worse they could change the rules in a negative way after Week 1. That is what happened in 2003 with the now infamous Tape Measure Rule. I was at that Week 1 VCU Regional. I was not happy that we had to scrap our tape measure early in the design process when it was deemed illegal by an update, only to compete against teams (who didn't read the updates) with (suddenly legal) tape measures.

Update 16 is a good update after Week 1, so it is the Anti-Tape Measure Rule.

Week 1 is always a guinea pig for something (FMS, Real Time Scoring, rule loopholes). However, you cant let these issues ruin the event for you. If things like that really bother you, maybe you should consider attending a later regional. My teams try to avoid Week 1 Regionals for multiple reasons. I realise other teams have little choice when thier home regional or the only regional for a few hundred miles is on Week 1.

Originally Posted by pfreivald

1551 has been going to week 1 regionals since it's inception -- and has never attended two regionals -- and we've never found that there's some big problem with the first week...

Actually, half of the FLR regionals (06-08) have occured on Week 2. It really matters which week in January is Kickoff (and what day of the week is January 1st). I can't wait for FLR to be on Week 2 again.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Actually, half of the FLR regionals (06-08) have occured on Week 2. It really matters which week in January is Kickoff (and what day of the week is January 1st). I can't wait for FLR to be on Week 2 again.

I stand corrected!

Either way, I'm fine with a Week 1 Regional. There are always bugs/kinks to work out, but there always are with our robots, too!

[Ricky Q.]

Something to note - from what I'm seeing so far - the 5pt bonus for winning is not being displayed in the final score.

It is only showing up in the seeding score on the rankings.

I would have that that FIRST would wanted the winning bonus publicized out in the arena.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Ricky Q.

Something to note - from what I'm seeing so far - the 5pt bonus for winning is not being displayed in the final score.

It is only showing up in the seeding score on the rankings.

I would have that that FIRST would wanted the winning bonus publicized out in the arena.

The winning bonus is only part of the seeding score, so at most I would think the announcers would explain it (like Paul did at FLR), but it wouldnt be part of the final scores or real time scores... just like the seeding points were never displayed even when the "losing team" got more than the "winning team"... The ranking system has always been "behind the curtain" at the regionals.

[brianelite]

FIRST should apologize to week one participants

[Kimmeh]

Originally Posted by brianelite

FIRST should apologize to week one participants

I disagree. To be blunt and slightly cynical, what good would an apology do? It's in the past, so there's nothing it would truly accomplish. Everyone knows that Week 1 events have issues. It's expected. Granted, no one expected such a massive one, least of all the GDC. However, they did happen, and the GDC did their best to remedy the situation. That's the best we can ask for.

Hakuna Matata

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

Hakuna Matata

Thanks for getting the song stuck in my head. The rest of work should be a bit more interesting.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

I disagree. To be blunt and slightly cynical, what good would an apology do? It's in the past, so there's nothing it would truly accomplish. Everyone knows that Week 1 events have issues. It's expected. Granted, no one expected such a massive one, least of all the GDC. However, they did happen, and the GDC did their best to remedy the situation. That's the best we can ask for.

Hakuna Matata

Just because "Everyone knows that Week 1 events have issues" doesn't make it right to those teams that can only go to a week 1 regional.

The game is different for all teams that play after week 1, this is a fundamental change from years past where everyone played by the same rules.

[Wayne Doenges]

The game is different for all teams that play after week 1, this is a fundamental change from years past where everyone played by the same rules.

I disagree. Example 2002 season. FIRST rules stated that you couldn't have any type of entanglement device which ruled out tape measurers. We designed two (11 pounds each) devices that spooled out a 22' length of lexan to score in both end zones.
After our regional FIRST changed the rule and said tape measurers were legal. We were a little miffed, at the change, but we GOT OVER IT.