disaster in israel regional

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by brianelite

It doesn't sound like FIRST can succeed in Israel. If coaches are urging students to disrupt matches there is no hope....

Measure yourself by your best moments, not by your worst. We are too prone to judge ourselves by our moments of despondency and depression.
- Robert Johnson

Mr. Johnson has it right ;-)

I don't think we should judge the entire Israeli FIRST efforts by one event after one very long, tiring, and emotional day.

Joe J.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Measure yourself by your best moments, not by your worst. We are too prone to judge ourselves by our moments of despondency and depression.
- Robert Johnson

Mr. Johnson has it right ;-)

I don't think we should judge the entire Israeli FIRST efforts by one event after one very long, tiring, and emotional day.

Joe J.

I have to agree, the regional may not have went smoothly but it does NOT mean it is impossible for FRC to succeed there. FIRST (and all involved) need to determine what went right, what went wrong, and what they can change.

This regional has shown us that there are still major problems with the way FRC runs international events and that we need to work harder.

We need to step back, admit that mistakes were made (by all parties) and figure out what we can do to fix them in the future. We don't need to blame people or groups, we need to find solutions.

[David3316]

I'm one of two team captain of team 3316, it was a big disappointment for my team that this year had so many issues because all of our team members but 2 are going to graduate this year and thus not experience this wonderful experience again.

There were many issues except the communication issues, my team had only one match working properly out of the 3 which we were supposed to compete in (aside the 1/4 finals). in the 2nd match the robot which we played with (3339) was supposed to hang and thus win the match but the communications failed in the last 15 seconds and cause the results to be the exact opposite.

We addressed the judges directly claiming that a re-match was a must and all they said was there is no time, i cannot understand why a competition that could have technical failures of this magnitude is being played in an arena that cannot allow any time extensions, it is a serious matter that has to be solved in the future in my opinion.

Besides that, before our 2nd game our modem cable was gone even tho we didn't move our robot at all, we suggested that other team took it after searching all over the place and the judges didn't even give us extra time causing other teams to suffer when each match is crucial..

It was truly heartbreaking to see the final being 3 teams against 2 for most of it while one robot is blocking a goal. I fell sorry for the teams that came from california, one of them was on top on the 1st day and ended ranked 43 in the second day despite a brilliant robot..

I hope the issues will be resolved next year, even though it was my first and final year in this project as a student.

David

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by David3316

I'm one of two team captain of team 3316, it was a big disappointment for my team that this year had so many issues because all of our team members but 2 are going to graduate this year and thus not experience this wonderful experience again.

There were many issues except the communication issues, my team had only one match working properly out of the 3 which we were supposed to compete in (aside the 1/4 finals). in the 2nd match the robot which we played with (3339) was supposed to hang and thus win the match but the communications failed in the last 15 seconds and cause the results to be the exact opposite.

We addressed the judges directly claiming that a re-match was a must and all they said was there is no time, i cannot understand why a competition that could have technical failures of this magnitude is being played in an arena that cannot allow any time extensions, it is a serious matter that has to be solved in the future in my opinion.

Besides that, before our 2nd game our modem cable was gone even tho we didn't move our robot at all, we suggested that other team took it after searching all over the place and the judges didn't even give us extra time causing other teams to suffer when each match is crucial..

It was truly heartbreaking to see the final being 3 teams against 2 for most of it while one robot is blocking a goal. I fell sorry for the teams that came from california, one of them was on top on the 1st day and ended ranked 43 in the second day despite a brilliant robot..

I hope the issues will be resolved next year, even though it was my first and final year in this project as a student.

David

I feel really bad for all of the teams and especially any first year teams member who were seniors, and therefore may never get to experience a good competition.

What about taking up the challenge of putting on the biggest and best off-season competition in the world? You could even call it IRI2 (Isreali Robotics Invitational). Get the bugs worked out and invite all of the teams back to do it right in the off season. No, it won't substitute for the real thing, but it will give teams the chance to compete at a high level. And who knows, it might turn out every bit as good as an official event (just look at the IRI).

Of course, that's easy for me to say sitting in my office 4000 miles away.

[gyaniv]

This is not the programmers fault... yes some teams had "Watchdog Not Fed" on their DS but most of the teams had "No Robot Communication" when they had communication problems...
"No Robot Communication" can only happen by a field error that is related to the field router and robot access-point, and "Watchdog Not Fed" is programmers fault most of the time as far as i know.
As the driver of team 2230 i can assure you that during most of the games the communication problems were because there was no communication with the robot, and even in our semi-finals game, two robots in our alliance didn't have communication at all with the robot during most of the game (team 1690 and team 2214) which caused the game to be 3 robots against 1 robot, and since it is the elimination games the robots where good (we were against teams 2630 1657 and 2669 the regional champions) so we didn't stand a chance, and the field crew didn't even care about all the communication problems and continued the game normally like nothing happened. and we didn't even had a chance to fix it because of the stupid decision to make the elimination games 1 match and not the best out of 3 games.

[lynca]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

building a real time control system with 6 to 10 Windows XP PCs in the loop without a professional grade, real time software overlord on each is like playing Russian Roulette -- someone is eventually going to get a bullet the brain.

I completely agree. The blue box last year was a real-time system that did have its own problems. Hopefully FIRST can settle on a middle ground and test the equipment completely.

I believe this also stems from not allowing all the teams to test the Driver Station / cRio code until Kickoff. Out of the fifty Beta teams with access to the 2010 system only a handful posted documentation on the system. The Lunacy Beta test model was the best implementation of Beta testing so far.

At Bayou , we had major problems due to not updating the Driver Station firmware. Check to make sure your DS firmware is the latest.

[brianelite]

Originally Posted by lynca

I completely agree. The blue box last year was a real-time system that did have its own problems. Hopefully FIRST can settle on a middle ground and test the equipment completely.

I believe this also stems from not allowing all the teams to test the Driver Station / cRio code until Kickoff. Out of the fifty Beta teams with access to the 2010 system only a handful posted documentation on the system. The Lunacy Beta test model was the best implementation of Beta testing so far.

At Bayou , we had major problems due to not updating the Driver Station firmware. Check to make sure your DS firmware is the latest.

What do you mean teams couldn't test the cRio/Driver station until kickoff?

The REAL issue here is that FIRST continues to put amateurs in charge of developing the programming environment. Total disaster this year with C++, our code was blowing up for WEEKS into build season before the WPI guys fixed their library... absolutely inexcusable that these guys who cannot even compile their own library are given the task of providing the programming tools for hundreds/thousands of teams using C++... It is simply outrageous that after 2 years deployment FIRST had to scramble to put out a working cRio image/ robotics library in the final week or so...

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by brianelite

What do you mean teams couldn't test the cRio/Driver station until kickoff?

The REAL issue here is that FIRST continues to put amateurs in charge of developing the programming environment. Total disaster this year with C++, our code was blowing up for WEEKS into build season before the WPI guys fixed their library... absolutely inexcusable that these guys who cannot even compile their own library are given the task of providing the programming tools for hundreds/thousands of teams using C++... It is simply outrageous that after 2 years deployment FIRST had to scramble to put out a working cRio image/ robotics library in the final week or so...

Oh really? Amateurs? And I suppose you know these people personally?

Then I suppose any old ungrateful team could write their own fully functioning code from scratch?

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by brianelite

What do you mean teams couldn't test the cRio/Driver station until kickoff?

The REAL issue here is that FIRST continues to put amateurs in charge of developing the programming environment. Total disaster this year with C++, our code was blowing up for WEEKS into build season before the WPI guys fixed their library... absolutely inexcusable that these guys who cannot even compile their own library are given the task of providing the programming tools for hundreds/thousands of teams using C++... It is simply outrageous that after 2 years deployment FIRST had to scramble to put out a working cRio image/ robotics library in the final week or so...

What course of action do you propose, then? Instead of pointing fingers and blaming people for what's wrong, why not give some sort of constructive criticism on how to fix the current system? As evidenced by Team Update #16, FIRST does, at times, listen to the concerns of the greater FIRST community.

[brianelite]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

What course of action do you propose, then? Instead of pointing fingers and blaming people for what's wrong, why not give some sort of constructive criticism on how to fix the current system? As evidenced by Team Update #16, FIRST does, at times, listen to the concerns of the greater FIRST community.

I don't want to totally derail this thread so I will be concise.

FIRST should use a simple AVR microcontroller with a basic library for abstraction. NO OS ON THE ROBOT. NO PRECOMPILED LIBRARY. NO MULTIPLE UPDATES IN A SINGLE WEEK. Keep it simple stupid. Despite all of FIRSTS efforts - almost no teams use vision tracking this year. There is no reason for teams needing a $1000 subsidized cRIO. C is better for students to learn than Labview.

Back on topic - SO why couldn't Israeli teams test their code?

[keehun]

Originally Posted by brianelite

I don't want to totally derail this thread so I will be concise.

If you really don't want to derail this thread, you better explain and have a good warrant and reason to every one of your claims.

Originally Posted by brianelite

FIRST should use a simple AVR microcontroller with a basic library for abstraction.

FIRST just moved away from a simple microcontroller for a reason.. I am awestruck by the lag-less target detection and advanced driving systems that have risen from the ability for real time complex mathematical computations that the cRio was able to deliver. That 8 bit controller using interrupts would've been no where close enough.

Originally Posted by brianelite

NO OS ON THE ROBOT. NO PRECOMPILED LIBRARY. NO MULTIPLE UPDATES IN A SINGLE WEEK. Keep it simple stupid.

That sounds nice. But then again, it's much easier said then done. If you want "simple stupid" maybe FRC isn't for you.

Originally Posted by brianelite

Despite all of FIRSTS efforts - almost no teams use vision tracking this year.

You are quite uninformed. I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by brianelite

There is no reason for teams needing a $1000 subsidized cRIO. C is better for students to learn than Labview.

Perhaps there's no reason... But that's not for us to decide. It's also not for us to decide whether or not C or LabView is more useful, as they aren't mutually exclusive skills or toolsets.


I think I can imagine the scope of the horrible event and letdown the Israel Regional may have been. But I think we don't need to keep complaining or whining or telling FIRST that they messed up. Like in a music concert, the performers are the FIRST to know if there was a mistake, even a minute one that goes unheard to the audience. I think that there's no reason for people to be bashing the Israel Regional, at this point. Just be patient with FIRST and FRC and eventually they will have it solved. I hope that the competition is more than just getting in to matches and winning. I had always thought and believed that FIRST was for something greater, the experience, the work ethic, the team work, the spirit, the connections and relationships, and the generosity (Gracious Professionalism) at the competitions. Let's show Dean, Woodie, and rest of FIRST that we can handle minor hiccups like those that went down in Israel.

Keehun
Team 2502

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by brianelite

What do you mean teams couldn't test the cRio/Driver station until kickoff?

The REAL issue here is that FIRST continues to put amateurs in charge of developing the programming environment. Total disaster this year with C++, our code was blowing up for WEEKS into build season before the WPI guys fixed their library... absolutely inexcusable that these guys who cannot even compile their own library are given the task of providing the programming tools for hundreds/thousands of teams using C++... It is simply outrageous that after 2 years deployment FIRST had to scramble to put out a working cRio image/ robotics library in the final week or so...

It is very unfortunate that you continue to bash FIRST volunteers, sponsors, beta testers and others who worked very hard to give a decent control system.

Instead of turning all that energy you seem to have into a postive force to help improve FIRST, you still insist on negativity and rude criticism.

The people working on that system are professionals, and excellent programmers. Indeed, you had many absolute TOP notch engineers working on the system. In fact, I think you'll find that hundreds of teams are utilizing C++ without the issues you seem to think are so earth-shattering.

Part of being in FIRST is find and dealing with issues in a professional way: maintaining a positive attitude and finding ways to solve the issue. I suggest you work on that method. It will certainly bear more fruit that your current course of routinely bashing FIRST and the people who work hard to try and make it a success.

I apologize for the highjack, but I couldn't in good conscience let brianelite's post go unanswered. This is the second time he's gone down the road of denegration and put-downs.

[brianelite]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

It is very unfortunate that you continue to bash FIRST volunteers, sponsors, beta testers and others who worked very hard to give a decent control system.

Instead of turning all that energy you seem to have into a postive force to help improve FIRST, you still insist on negativity and rude criticism.

The people working on that system are professionals, and excellent programmers. Indeed, you had many absolute TOP notch engineers working on the system. In fact, I think you'll find that hundreds of teams are utilizing C++ without the issues you seem to think are so earth-shattering.

Part of being in FIRST is find and dealing with issues in a professional way: maintaining a positive attitude and finding ways to solve the issue. I suggest you work on that method. It will certainly bear more fruit that your current course of routinely bashing FIRST and the people who work hard to try and make it a success.

I apologize for the highjack, but I couldn't in good conscience let brianelite's post go unanswered. This is the second time he's gone down the road of denegration and put-downs.

I am floored by your continued arrogance/ignorance.

It is obvious that you do not use C++. Why do you think so many C++ updates came out? Because the previous updates broke things/didn't work.

Look here: http://first.wpi.edu/FRC/frccupdates.html

Every single one of the mid-season upgrades is a bug fix. Every team had these issues; it's all WPI's fault for making bad libraries.

[GaryVoshol]

Closing thread to let things calm down. I'll open it again on Monday.

[GaryVoshol]

OK, I've opened it up again. Let's try to keep things civil, and only provide constructive suggestions.