Programmers: I Have A Challenge For You

[apalrd]

It's amazing how much automation creeps up as the years go by...

In 2001 (Back in the day of PBASIC) we had a robot that could balance itself on the ramp with the push of a button. A weight on a pot was all it needed. That's autonomy, however basic it is.

Then, in 2003, FIRST added Autonomous mode. I've heard stories from former members and mentors of back then ("Back in 2003, the robot entered Autonomous and hit a wall at full speed") and how bad it was programming it ("We had 63 bytes of RAM and spent more code caching things into EEPROM to save RAM then actually doing stuff")

In 2004 we had a decent processor and real autonomous programs began. This year, we also had an automatic transmission (autonomy in Teleop). It automatically shifted based on RPM's of the wheels vs output speed,

Several of our other robots have had semi-autonomy in Teleop. 2007 had some pretty sweet arm software that I would say goes beyond the "rc car" definition (you could slide the end point in and out and it would calculate joint angles on the fly, as well as make sure it didn't hit itself on the way). This is my personal favorite robot of ours, so I went and wrote a LabVIEW demo to illustrate automation of the arm (combining some elements from the 2005 game, notably the ability to store game pieces).

This LabVIEW demo was known as "the belly manager" and basically allowed the operator to perform many tasks with only 4 buttons. The total actions: Get Floor, Get Human, Score Hi, Score Lo, Hold Hi, Hold, Belly1, Belly2, Belly3 (get and put belly), as well as several intermediate states. The operator requested a Score Hi, Score Lo, Get Human, or Get Floor and the robot automatically stored game pieces in the belly when slots were available, and always tried to either empty or fill the claw. Based on states of the claw or belly slots, it would either hold the arm in a high position that makes manipulation easy or fold down to a lower position to be more stable. With the single press of Score Hi or Score Lo, it would execute a sequence to move to the setup position (possibly many steps depending on starting position), "stab" the goal, drop the game piece, and return on a path that was as stable and efficient as possible. The "robot" would try to determine the operators desired action (score, retrieve, move, etc) and act accordingly. While this never exited the simulator, this kind of automation could easily be incorporated into FIRST robots.

[gvarndell]

Not in response to any particular post, I love that this is being discussed.

I really hope FIRST will find a way to design next year's game such that clever software will stand a chance to share the limelight with clever mechanical systems.

I know some teams (1629 included) used software to _assist_ with goal scoring.
That is, the robot (under operator control) never decided to go for a goal.
Instead, the robot took a command to kick the ball and attempted to do a little fine-tuning on the aim -- using the camera; but this is a baby step.

Think about implementing "situational awareness" in software:
What does my universe (the field) look like?
How big is it and where are the fixed objects?
Where am I within my universe and which way am I facing?
Where are my friends and where are my foes?

These are robot smarts that should prove valuable to you next year, no matter what the game is.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by gvarndell

Not in response to any particular post, I love that this is being discussed.

I really hope FIRST will find a way to design next year's game such that clever software will stand a chance to share the limelight with clever mechanical systems.

I know some teams (1629 included) used software to _assist_ with goal scoring.
That is, the robot (under operator control) never decided to go for a goal.
Instead, the robot took a command to kick the ball and attempted to do a little fine-tuning on the aim -- using the camera; but this is a baby step.

Think about implementing "situational awareness" in software:
What does my universe (the field) look like?
How big is it and where are the fixed objects?
Where am I within my universe and which way am I facing?
Where are my friends and where are my foes?

These are robot smarts that should prove valuable to you next year, no matter what the game is.

I personally want to stay away from the camera. if you havent noticed, it had a big lag, IDK if that was just the data getting sent over, but I want to use IR sensors and Sonars instead

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I want to use IR sensors and Sonars instead

Good thinking -- I wasn't implying that camera vision was the best or only way to support situational awareness in a robot.

[randalcr]

That is a big challenge, and it's one that I'd be willing to accept! Lol, this will be fun.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Next Year, no matter the game, I challenge you to make your robot fully autonomous. ... Just post your opinions and I will add to the list if you want to take the challenge.

Teams That Are Willing To Take The Challenge:

*Team 589 (Just Me As Of Now)
*Team 33
*Team 2503
*Team 1086

I haven't read this entire thread; but if the folks who have signed up for the original poster's challenge (and any who haven't yet) would like to get a little practice in before attempting this challenge with a real robot - I can make it possible for you to control one or all of the 5th Gear simulated robots purely through software - I did this myself for our Overdrive simulation, and it is definitely a learning experience that would be good prep for attempting to the same with a real bot - Do I have any takers?

Blake

Main 5th Gear Thread: Link to 5G Thread

[Tanner]

Originally Posted by gblake

I haven't read this entire thread; but if the folks who have signed up for the original poster's challenge (and any who haven't yet) would like to get a little practice in before attempting this challenge with a real robot - I can make it possible for you to control one or all of the 5th Gear simulated robots purely through software - I did this myself for our Overdrive simulation, and it is definitely a learning experience that would be good prep for attempting to the same with a real bot - Do I have any takers?

I think that'd be pretty neat. Plus then you could experiment with a few different designs. Sure, its a bit of a exact environment, but you get to play with a robot any of the time.

-Tanner

[Dancin103]

I must say, if I ever saw this I would be amazed. It would be awesome. BTW this is my 340th post. Go GRR.

[MJ Miller]

I'm a mentor for Team 1421 and Computational Scientist who would be happy to help with this project. I look forward to hearing more about it.

MJ

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by ideasrule

Given the complexity of the undertaking, I think it's better to focus on one project than to have two projects going in different directions. If some people here only know one language, I can help convert C++ code into Java code or vice versa, so that's not a problem.

The initial goals of the project require both a Java version and a C++ version. We are trying to develop a code base for easy programming of Mechanisms(Drives, Arms, Shooters...), Maneuvers, and an Event System. The architecture should be able to be utilized by teams regardless of what language they are using. So don't look at it as two projects, look at it as one architecture in two languages. (i.e. Hello and Bonjor accomplish the same goal, but by being able to say both you increase the number of people you can say hi to)

Originally Posted by gblake

I'm curious who the four folks/teams are, and how you are organizing your assault on this mountain - Can you post a few of the project schedule milestones and high-level software architecture outlines? Those would be good fodder for this thread.

Blake

I am a mentor for team 319, and a senior of CS @ WPI.
History of 319 autonomous successes: pull 10 pt ball into field in 05, shoot 9/10 in 06, knock a ball in 08, shoot 2/3 in 10. The teams have recently signed on to the first forge project so not much has been organized but will be soon (I have a competition in 2 weeks for $1200 which i am trying to get to start the first FRC team in Haiti).

The goals of the project are to first get the basic architecture down so you can implement a cookie cutter program in one day.

Second phase would be to implements a more intelligent system (possibly working off some form of decision tree), which could play a match of Breakaway offensively.

Third phase would be to implement some form of localization and communication (Zigbee module) so robots could communicate with one another.

See above for basic architecture idea, but more complex is described on the firstforge page. The idea is that maneuvers are the same for every robot, and same with basic mechanisms(a drive drives, a arm raises and lowers, a shooter cocks and shoots..) by using maneuvers that can pass, fail and timeout (decided by the mechanisms) you can create a state machine of maneuvers which should work on any mechanism based system. All the programmer has to define is how the mechanism actually executes a given task, and what it believes a pass or fail to be, alternatively you can do it all on timers through the timeouts, and then the mechanism just runs that operation until it receives another.

The importance is in a simple but extendable architecture.

Originally Posted by MJ Miller

I'm a mentor for Team 1421 and Computational Scientist who would be happy to help with this project. I look forward to hearing more about it.

MJ

If you are looking to help that would be awesome! I am so excited by the response from teams looking to work collaboratively, I feel this is one area where FIRST has been held back ... (why for all the secrecy among teams??). As the awards that are given out are not actually monetary, I would like to see teams work together much more. But thats besides the point...

for anyone even considering working on this project please sign up for a first forge account and register under the ADK project, this is where all the tasks will be organized and delegated.

http://firstforge.wpi.edu/sf/projects/bobotics

cheers to all!

[kamocat]

I can't say if my team is up for making a fully autonomous 'bot, but I'm more than happy to help in the planning and coding (LabVIEW) for a system to make an autonomous implementation easy for all teams.
You can reach me at kamocat@gmail.com.

[Brandon_L]

It would completely depend on the game. That, and my team might not be that happy about it. Our driver would step forward to control it and he would have no control. I can see his face now.

If I do it, it wouldn't be used at competitions, just for lolz.

I'm in.

[gblake]

To all of the posters who have said that ... their team won't like ..., I have a suggestion. Get permission to use one of your team's current robots to do some software work, and start learning.

You aren't asking the team to stake their next several seasons on the success or failure of creating a fully autonomous robot. You are instead scheduling some time with the robot to get some useful work done. Work that will be educational, and will contribute to both the team's and the community's body of knowledge. My guess is that the robot can be up on blocks for most of the time.

Once you are initially successful developing a few small and useful improvements (small steps first, big steps once enough small steps can be combined), put a smile on your face let your team know that whether or not you (and team mates) can make the next-season robot work better during the autonomous periods, or assist your drivers during tele-op, is no longer an open question. The code for doing it is already done and is on-the-shelf for next season. That should be a good day.

My point is not that you need to "go rogue"; but that you simply need to confer with the team mentors/leaders and let them know you will want to schedule some off-season time for using the robot (safely) to do some ordinary, simple, code integration and testing. If it is possible for a team to say that is a bad idea, then I'll be dumbfounded.

Sound good?

Blake

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by gblake

The code for doing it is already done and is on-the-shelf for next season. That should be a good day.

Make sure you post any code made in past seasons or the offseason in a public repository linked to CD or first forge, otherwise it doesn't register as a COTS and is illegal to use according to the first rules.

[ChaosX73]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Next Year, no matter the game, I challenge you to make your robot fully autonomous. That means autonomous during tele operation period too. Anyone up for that challenge? That would challenge your skills and dedication to the robot. That means no more just drive up 3 feet, kick, repeat type of coding. It would have to be a lot more thought out and will have to use real life robot coding. Its not really a robot if its not autonomous, its just an over glorified RC car if its human controlled. And if you are still sceptical, FIRST pretty much writes the libraries so that even a guy that picks up a programming book can code the robot in a week or even less... Well IMHO you can't learn programming from a book, sure you may learn the language and syntax, but you have to have experience to actually program. Programming comes with experience, and the way FIRST makes it, you get minimum experience as a programmer programming these robots. I will be announcing to my club next year that we want to try this. Just post your opinions and I will add to the list if you want to take the challenge.

Teams That Are Willing To Take The Challenge:

*Team 589 (Just Me As Of Now)
*Team 33
*Team 2503
*Team 1086

You would be a programming god if you could do this. I was the programmer for my team's autonomous, and it took me longer than the allotted six weeks, although that may be because this was my first year of official programming. Although I have thought about this concept before, it almost seems like we'd be making our own AI system, and we all know what happens then...