Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

[GGCO]

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

217 can move omni-directionally, meaning they could have moved across with their kicker facing the tower. So, they could have kicked the balls away as soon as they blocked it. Maybe the felt their robot would have been too skinny to block all the shots, though.

I'm not sure 469 is the most hated team in FRC...I know I gained even more respect and appreciation of them this year.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

If you hate them that much, would you have declined them if their alliance had picked you with their last pick?

469 is a model FIRST team who has reached a level that we should all be striving for. I do find myself kicking myself for not pushing for a design like theirs. Once I get past that initial embarrassment, I am simply in awe of what they have done this year. I will be rooting for them heavily at championship, except if/when I have to face them. The level of greatness that they have achieved is nothing short of inspiring, and I am in awe of that. It is what Team 1114 strives for every year.

[WJF2011]

In my opinion this is how first should be run in 15 years or so:
Each team is placed in a state division based on sponsoring, experience, past wins, and such. The divisions would be like varsity sports today with A-AAAAA.
The state would sponsor the state competition between each team in different divisions. Also the state would by the KOP for each team that wanted to have FIRST as a varsity sport, each additional part would have to be independently funded. The winners and runners up would all qualify for regionals. The regionals would be run directly by first and would have divisions A-AAAAA. The winners and runners up of each division would qualify for nationals. The national winners for only 5A would go to a world championship against the national winners for like Japan and stuff. IT WOULD BE INSANE.

[fuzzy1718]

As soon as you put teams in divisions based on performance and many other aspects, you lose the sole purpose of FIRST, insperation. Every team will then play the no holds bar, win at all cost, game. The lesser teams will not have an example to aspire to because they will have no direct contact with the AAAAA teams. Using the division system like this would be a terrible idea. This is in no way what ths thread is about though, so I digress.
On the topic at hand, if I were hot I think I would have declined. What would be better for them: another state trophy or knowing that they can topple, arguably, the most likly canidate for a championship win? Easy choice.

[Ben Martin]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

At least for me, when I was watching the Michigan State Championship, I was extremely impressed with 469's robot. To me, if you build a robot that can execute a dominant or chokehold strategy for the game that is more effective than nearly all other robots (ex. 71 in 2001, 71 in 2002, 1114 in 2008), you have earned your victory. I was rooting for them all throughout the Michigan State Championship.

[Jack Jones]

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

Take heart. After all, you're still rookies. Maybe someday you will grow up to be hated too. {-- smiley just for you Ed}

[johnr]

This thread should close with that last post. It can't get any better.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

I think you are letting your emotions run away with you.

First, I don't think that 469 "lawyered" their way into anything. The rules are the rules. Not only do the rules as initially published make their design legal, a clarification relatively early by FIRST reaffirmed the legality of their machine. Moreover, there are other machines that do similar things (albeit not as well). Is it the rules we are worried about or just the effectiveness of the implementation?

Second, 469 is in no way the "most hated" team in FRC or anywhere else. Perhaps you are referring to the shouts of joy in the stands at MSC when 469 tipped over or had any sort of hiccup. If so, I think you are confusing relief that there may be SOME hope for us mortals with actual anger at the team.

Do not confuse competitive reactions with actual dislike.

Las Guerrillas was, is and will remain (God willing) one of the fixtures of the Michigan FIRST landscape. Their storied past and their fearsome robots as well as their efforts to advance FIRST in Michigan and around the country/world are legendary.

Here's to Las Guerrillas. Well done, well done, well done.

Joe J.

[kwotremb]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

I would say that is far from the truth. One of their mentors (Dan) provided us a lot of help trying to get our robot running. They, along with many other powerhouses, continuously help out other teams trying to get them working. For that the team as a whole will never be hated for all the help and inspiration they provide. They also help out with a lot of behind the scenes work needed to keep some events going. Would I have like to see them lose? Probably, but thats just the whole underdog. They built a wonderful robot and its amazing to watch. My hats off to them and I wish them the best.

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

How can you make such a statement? 469 is one of the most respected team in Michigan. They helped start many teams and helped them look for funding including ours. Their mentors spent a lot of time mentoring us in our rookie year. They gave us material and parts when we were in a rush. They opened their shop to us when we had to work on Sunday to finish our robot. They opened their full size field for us and many other teams to practice. And if you know the history of how this team get started, you would not have said what you said.

I suggest you take back your statement and stop bashing 469. They have an amazing machine which other teams considered building but were not successful. They are very smart in how they implemented it.

Please watch what you say on this forum unless you are not here to make friends, and 469 has a lot of friends.

[Chris is me]

I'm really upset that one of the only truly innovative robot / strategy combinations I've seen in FRC is seen as lawyering the rules by so many. Keeping up that thinking is why 99% of robots this year look exactly the same.

[kwotremb]

At the Mich state competition, there are so many good teams that the second ranked will still be very good and possibly take down a 469 alliance. The 4/5 winner will probably give them a good run for the money and maybe even win. The top seed will pick 469, but the second alliance will be 67/33/1918. A combination of 2 of those, especially 67 and 33 will be a good tag team to go after 469. The only reason I say 33 and 67 is because they can both get the last second hang in for 4 points, and that could be the deciding factor. A 469 and 1918 alliance with another good bot just to push balls in will be hard to stop.

I would not say 469 is the ultimate bot yet, I think someone else has a chance to win at the state competition, but it will be an epic finals!

[ALTrammell818]

Originally Posted by kwotremb

At the Mich state competition, there are so many good teams that the second ranked will still be very good and possibly take down a 469 alliance. The 4/5 winner will probably give them a good run for the money and maybe even win. The top seed will pick 469, but the second alliance will be 67/33/1918. A combination of 2 of those, especially 67 and 33 will be a good tag team to go after 469. The only reason I say 33 and 67 is because they can both get the last second hang in for 4 points, and that could be the deciding factor. A 469 and 1918 alliance with another good bot just to push balls in will be hard to stop.

I would not say 469 is the ultimate bot yet, I think someone else has a chance to win at the state competition, but it will be an epic finals!

Good call Kyle. Although I really do think that 469 will do whatever they can to get 217. They may not be the best pick, but they are really good and the two have had a lot of play time together.

[Rich Kressly]

Give yourself the best chance to win at the event you're at by picking the best possible alliance partners available - always. Teams work too hard and there is never a guarantee you'll ever be in that position again.

As a third party observer, however, yeah Joe, I'd like to see a pairing that could give em a run.