FAHA/YMTC: DOGMA Penalties for Seeding Points

[Bharat Nain]

Ethical dilemmas are a part of life. Sometimes, due to their extreme nature, a poster might want to stay anonymous. What do you think of this anonymous YMTC?

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At the 2010 Atlantis Regional:

Team OneABot is ranked #1
Team TwoABot is ranked #2
Team ThreeABot is ranked #3
Team FiftyABot is ranked dead last at #50

Historically, the Atlantis Regional has been dominated by OneABot and TwoABot. They have won every Atlantis Regional to date, with one of them always ranking #1 and picking the other.

Team ThreeABot has a very good robot. In fact, their robot is probably good enough to win the regional if OneABot and TwoABot can be split up. However, it is a forgone conclusion that OneABot and TwoABot will win if they are able to pick each other.

In the very last qualification match, ThreeABot and FiftyABot are against each other. FiftyABot tells ThreeABot that they want to help ThreeABot get the #1 seed, and they'll do whatever it takes. ThreeABot needs 20 seeding points this match to rank first, but are faced with a grim outlook: they are the only robot in the match that can score.

Here is how the match unfolds:

1) ThreeABot quickly scores 1 point for themselves in autonomous.

2) ThreeABot then begins to start scoring for their opponents as teleop starts.

3) FiftyABot's human player is manning the trident, and "disaster" strikes on the very first ball. The HP taps the ball to push it down the rail, but the ball slides off the rail and onto the field without going through the sensor.

4) Shortly after, the DOGMA light turns on, and stays on the rest of the match.

5) The match ends with the score before penalties: 1 to 8 (ThreeABot loses)

7) DOGMA penalties wipe out all 8 of the goals scored for FiftyABot's alliance, and the final score is posted: 1 to 0 (ThreeABot wins)

8) ThreeABot's seeding points: 5 (win bonus) + 1 (their score) + 16 (2X unpenalized loser) = 22

Questions:

1) As a head ref, how would you score this match?
2) As either ThreeABot or FiftyABot, would you consider a strategy like this?
3) How do you feel about teams ThreeABot and FiftyABot, are they blatant cheaters, or just very clever?

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[Alex Cormier]

1) Just like a normal match, nothing is different from the Head Ref perspective.
2) Possibly.
3) Sounds like not the way the match was susposed to be played, but a nice outcome.


Also, it is impossible for the ball to go back onto the field through the rails and not go through the sensors.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

Also, it is impossible for the ball to go back onto the field through the rails and not go through the sensors.

An extremely unlukcy yet hard "whack" sends it hurdling right over the little blue box on top.

Dogma penalties kinda suck, but there's nothing done against the rules here. I'd probably give FiftyBot a dirty look or something... but what authority would anyone have for a rematch?

[Racer26]

I like the strategy, its one i never thought of. Seems a bit cagey though.

[EricH]

1) Same way as for every other match. If I called it differently, my head would be called for on CD, if nowhere else, for inconsistency. (Also note that this is also a scorekeeper call--same response.)

2) Quite possibly. However, I'd probably be more focused on the win.

3) They are strategists and tacticians. They may have also found a way to capitalize on the seeding score system.

If I did seed first, I would promptly proceed to ask the lower-ranked of OneABot and TwoABot to ally with me. My real goal, of course, would be the higher-ranked one, but the lower-ranked one would be an acceptable partner. Should they decline, then I force the higher-ranked one's hand by asking them to an alliance. Mission accomplished either way.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

Also, it is impossible for the ball to go back onto the field through the rails and not go through the sensors.

Except that, you know, it actually happened at multiple regionals...

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Except that, you know, it actually happened at multiple regionals...

The ONLY way this is possible is if the alliance member threw (or bounced) the ball over the driver station. OR if one of the volunteers mistakenly returned the ball to the field.

In my previous post, I said... "to go back onto the field through the rails and not go through the sensors."

The sensor system is 1 foot (that's 12 inches) behind the player station wall. If the ball was placed onto the rails, it HAS to go through the system BEFORE it goes past the driver station wall.

If you watch the NJ regional Finals, Match 2 (around 1:15). You can see that a ball goes back into the playing field, BUT illegally. The ball is placed improperly onto the rail, falls and then bounces off the head of a driver and into the field. This would action would fall under the category of throwing (or bouncing in this case) the ball over the alliance station wall.


J... A..

[EricH]

Alex, the OP specifically stated that the ball went off the rails and onto the field without going through the sensor. It's quite possible to do this by accident. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? Nope. Particularly if you're intending to have the "accident". (implied in the original setup)

The original scenario could have also used any number of other penalties, but DOGMA is the easiest because it continually increments.