Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I haven't missed the point. Next time you are in Austin, let me know and I'll introduce you to some folks that drive forklifts and move boxes when they aren't loading the feed sacks on the trucks.

And I'll introduce you to one of my team's sponsors.

Jane

Fair enough.

But now I have to ask what your original post was meant to illustrate. (Not trying to be obnoxious here -- I genuinely don't get it.)

[angelawence11]

Every job is important. if it werent, people wouldnt pay for it. people do things that contribute in some way to society. they shouldnt be dismissed, no matter what the job is
However, i do not thtink that Dean meant his comment offensively. Im sure that he didnt mean it... all he was trying to explain that he wants all of the intelligent kids who are in FIRST to contribute to society in some way that will advance us all, and that the math and science were learning in FIRST can aid us in doing that.

[dtengineering]

FIRST does spend a lot of time playing up the math, science and academic parts of the competition at the cost of the skills side of things.

But you know, it wouldn't hurt to drop a note to Dean explaining how his comments were heard by your sponsors and mentors.

It may well be that Dean's understanding of "manual labour" is quite different from that of your colleagues. Personally, I would refer to the work of tradespeople as "skilled labour" as opposed to "manual labour". I see manual labour as being paid for how much you sweat... and while there is no doubt that many tradespeople often get dirty and sweaty in the course of their job... they are being paid for what they know. Thats why there is a four year apprenticeship, and why master craftspeople... and general contractors... are worth one heck of a lot more than they were as teenagers. It's not because they have a stronger back... it's because they KNOW more.

And don't even get me started about how much you need to know to be a successful farmer! Heck... just ask any farmer. They are mechanics, accountants, economists, meterologists, biologists and more all rolled into one. Yep, they do some manual labour, but they also punch in GPS coordinates into the autopilot in the air conditioned cab of their tractor, too.

But don't take it from me... write Dean and ask him what he meant.

Jason

[Laremere]

Dean was talking *to* the kids, yes, but he was talking *about* the economy as a whole. He specifically said that we don't want the old jobs back (which is hard to hear when you know a lot of people who would really, really, REALLY like to have their old jobs back -- there's a lot more pride in swinging a hammer than being on welfare).

I took it that he was saying it's much better to create new jobs which increase our quality of life than to bring back old jobs which due to the increase in our levels of technology are no longer required.
It's something I've thought about myself, it seems that whenever a large amount of jobs are no longer needed, people who worked in those jobs should now be able to work in new jobs which increase our quality of life. The problem with this is that someone is needed to create those new jobs, a fine challenge considering the crowd.

As for Dean's comment about nobody wanting to be a manual laborer, I didn't notice during the speech, but I agree that he is incorrect about that statement. I know I don't want to do manual labor, I bet Dean doesn't like manual labor, but I know plenty of people who enjoy it, and I try to not take for granted said labor which makes our quality of life possible. It is my firm belief that the diversity of people is one of our greatest strengths as a people, however one problem is people may not see that they have the opportunity to pursue what they love to do as a career or even that such an opportunity exists. I find FIRST great in it's ability to inspire people who may be people which make great engineers and mathematicians, however I don't think everyone wants to be one, nor should everyone be one.

[StuMac]

Making money with your mind is rewarding, awesome, and should be encouraged in every possible way.

But making money with your hands is (or used to, depending on the economy sadly) a way to feed you and yours, and feel just as satisfied with life.

There are a lot of jobs people don't want. I have yet to meet a 16 year old who's aspiration is to grow up flipping burgers. And yes, some jobs aren't as pretty or glorious as others. But if I have chance to work with my hands, I'll take it every chance I can get. It's not only an awesome way to learn how things actually work (I'll learn more about a motor by taking it apart and experimenting than just looking at schematics), but also a way to realize that putting in a day of hard work is satisfying, knowing that you've done a good job, weren't afraid to mix things up, and earned your pay.

FIRST does a fairly good job of that. Not everyone will grow up to be an engineer, but everyone can have a place in FIRST.

[BrendanB]

Manual labor is not a bad thing. In fact, it is critical to everyday life as we know it. Robots are good for taking over dangerous jobs so that we don't put peoples lives in danger, but we can't have robots picking up trash, fixing roads, farming food, raising cattle so we can have steak, building houses, clearing land, etc. Life just would not function without these areas in life covered. I recently wrote an essay for my college writing class on this topic and discussed how college is not for everyone and how our country is slowly taking away from the value of the "trades" and manual labor. Our country has this image that we students will play varsity sports, get good SAT or ACT scores and receive tons of scholarships, play college sports while maintaining studies, and get a high paying job. Hate to break it to most of Americans, but that just does not happen in real life! Engineering is a great field of work that shapes the future of the world, but it is not the only thing that will change the future, there are so many jobs that change how the day happens and functions.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

His comment about how 'nobody wants a manual labor job' was not well-received by the general contractor who has been helping our team with electrical work, fabrication, and assembly for six years, nor by the farmer who gave us his time as well as over two thousand dollars (and has only ever wanted to be a farmer, and loves his job and his life), nor by the owner of the woodworking company that has given us thousands of dollars over the past several years.

General Contracting, Farming, Woodworking are absolutely positively not in the manual labor category. Yes it takes a lot of sweat but those are tough careers that require a lot of thinking, forward planning, risk management, personnel skills, and a fair amount of intestinal fortitude to create and operate successfully especially in any economy especially the current economy.

Each of these careers have a high "internal locus of control". Each of these individuals are their own man or woman. And each of them would prefer to be in charge of their own affairs instead of someone else running their lives. They are risk taking entrepreneurs.

In the past 3 weeks I have met with both Dean and Woodie, separately and up close and personal. I talked with Dean specifically on the issue careers choices that FIRST students make. By no stretch of the imagination does Dean expect all FIRST alumni to enter STEM fields. NO stretch at all. Dean wants what we all want and that is for students to get passionate about something, and take charge of their lives and excel at something. The reason the subject even came up was because one of my team members, Dean, and I were talking specifically about this issue because a student on my team is part of the Miss America's Pageant system and is the current Miss Teen Georgia. And no she is not going into STEM careers since we are talking about it. I was never planning on bringing up the Miss Georgia thing on Chief Delphi (because we do not want to exploit it) but it helps explain what I'm talking about. And yes ! she thinks FIRST is cool !!

Being a General Contractor, Farmer, or Woodworker requires someone that is clearly in charge of their destiny.

Woodie's discussed his childhood and how tough and dirt poor his family was. About how he learned to work with his hands and had NO plans to attend the university. He talked about education he got with his hands and how that gave him comparative advantage as a university student relative to those that have never had the opportunity to work with their hands and the sweat of their brow.

I can easily see how someone (that works that hard as the three careers listed above) can get worked up about Dean's comment. I understand that. I am from that world.

But based on up close and personal discussions with both Dean and Woodie (in the past 3 weeks) I am quite certain there was no slight intended by Dean but it was a careless choice of words.

Having said all of that Dean needs to address this in one of his future events. And I think it would be cool to get Mike Rowe on board.

Ed

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Dean needs to address this in one of his future events. And I think it would be cool to get Mike Rowe on board.
Ed

That is an address I look forward to hearing almost as much as I look forward to the next build season.
The semantic dancing will be epic.

And it shouldn't be difficult to get Mike Rowe on board.
With all the dirty jobs available at champs, he could film a couple segments for his show -- that would be awesome.

[N7UJJ]

It's not the message, but the Communicator.

I don't think Dean's message about aspiring to a professional degree is the cause of the elitist paradox, but rather the fact that Dean said it. Had one of the arena workers said the same, we would have stood and applauded him/her. My dad, a bus driver, told me the same thing. He also told me that anyone making an honest living deserves respect for their contribution to us all. I'm sure Dean's views are the same.

Dean's delivery is not the best, but his points are insightful and very "quoteworthy". More like being in a brainstorming session rather than the slick, edited final version.

Several years ago we were visiting an elite engineering oriented high school. Students were drawn from all over the city and were selected by high math scores, language skills -- cream of the crop. One activity they participated in was a competition to see how far a student-made vehicle could travel on a fixed, small amount of gasoline. They would always lose to rural schools "out in the sticks". When the kids asked their teacher how this could be, he replied, "While you are preparing yourselves academically for engineering, those kids have been keeping machinery running on the farm for years. they can "feel" what will work and how to coax a little more performance out of an engine. They have a life time of experience."

Our high school robotics club has competed in a number of engineering competitions with university teams. High school kids who have worked on projects for several years can beat university seniors whose "hands-on" experience is a fourth year, one semester capstone project.

Manual labor experience with engineering training is a powerful combination.

[Alan Anderson]

Change the pronunciation of one word slightly to replace "manual labor" with "menial labor". Is that still offensive?

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Change the pronunciation of one word slightly to replace "manual labor" with "menial labor". Is that still offensive?

I thought about that last night and again, it is the context in how it is used. This message of Dean's is not new and I don't think he said it without thinking or as an unprepared statement. He knows the possibilities of technology. We've touched on that in this thread - and how it can improve lives. We're losing that message here - improving lives in many ways: opportunity, change, advancement. In a few generations, we will remember the old times or be the old timers. I think Doc Wu explains that beautifully. And Dr. Cameron shows us how students can apply skills and knowledge in ways that advance opportunity and achievement - and beat the competition.

Jane

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Change the pronunciation of one word slightly to replace "manual labor" with "menial labor". Is that still offensive?

Coupled with any suggestion that people ought not aspire to it, it would probably be more so.
But then I saw no offense in what was said in the first place.

Edit: Although, it would probably have the effect of reducing the number of people who took offense.
People who don't view their vocation as menial labor would let it slide I guess.
And people who don't know the meaning of the word 'menial' would probably remain unruffled.

[Taylor]

At some point, I have told every student I have had about the three most important people in any building. Not the CEO, not the engineer, not the assembly workers. The three most important people in any business are secretaries, cooks, and janitors. If you are in the good graces of these three groups, you have access to things the President of the company doesn't even know about.

I think I can say with some certainty that the students on 1529 respect me. I can say with absolute certainty that the students on 1529 idolize Dean Kamen (or Woodie Flowers or Dave Lavery etc.). However, my team has virtually daily interactions with me; their exposure to these fine gentlemen is once, maybe twice a year. And those interactions aren't exactly two-way. Whatever "elitist" comment Dean makes does not override the daily lessons the team learns. I guess what I'm getting at is my team decides how my team operates, not Dean Kamen.

To extend the analogy a bit further, I imagine most everybody on here respects his or her father. But somewhere along the line, Dear Old Dad probably said something that we found a bit coarse/bothersome/offensive, and he probably did this in front of our friends. Did this stop our friendship with Jimmy and Timmy and Sally? I'd hope not, and I'd hope Father Kamen's misstep doesn't affect your relationships with your sponsor-friends either.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Just some thoughts rattling in my brain today. Dean's comments strike me as very odd coming from him. Dean does not have a degree. (He has an honorary degree) Perhaps he is regretting not having finished college? I am not bashing Dean, this is just some piece of information that is making me wonder all the more what prompted comments like these.

Sorry for bringing this thread back to life.

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Dean's comments strike me as very odd coming from him. Dean does not have a degree.

It is interesting that some of the best minds in innovation actually dropped out, including Dean and Gates. By going to college you limit risk, but at what cost? For me it was over $140,000.


For anyone looking into colleges, consider looking into other schools than the ones you think of at first. For example, UC boulder has an equivalent if not better CS program to WPI but at $12,000 less (for out of state) which with interest is almost a $55,000 savings.

Also if you plan on going to a state school like uc boulder, consider taking a year off and moving there and becoming a resident. By doing that you would save another $20,000 off the tuition. (remember you do have to worry about getting accepted so there is a risk that you would waste that year if you were rejected)

There are many factors that play into picking your school, but I would encourage you to look around a little more than I did. I think you'll be surprised at what you find.

I know its off-topic for this thread, but I wish someone had encouraged me to do this.