Limits on Team Hours

[hg273]

Hi All,

Team 1540 takes pride in being a student-managed team and producing a 100% student-designed and built robot. Recently, our school enacted a policy regarding the amount of time that students could have for homework and extracurricular activities. For this last build season, the policy did not impact the robotics program, and certain team members (myself included), racked up huge amounts of hours to finish the robot in 6 weeks. The administration caught wind of it, and was slightly concerned that students were putting 2, 3, 400 hours into robotics over a 6 week period of time. We were recently presented with a proposal that would not let a student into the robotics lab if he/she broke 200 hours over the 6 week build season. Additionally, the lab would be open from 3-6:30 on any school night, and only until 10 on weekends. My friends and I are concerned about how this may affect our build for next season. While there are many things we can do to distribute the hours, distributing tasks, training more new members etc. there are certain things that require some key members to put in large amounts of time.

I was wondering if other teams have statistics about the average and median amount of hours committed by team members over the build season. Anecdotes would work too. What I'm looking for are things that I, and my team, can take to our administration to see if we can amend the policy before it goes into effect for next year's build season. Also, if anyone has any past experience with situations similar to this, anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

[thefro526]

I hate when schools implement policies like this.

Regardless, in 2008 and 2009 I'd say I logged about 250hrs - 300hrs at school for build season. That doesn't include time I spent working on robotics related things at home or at work.

The only time limit we've ever had on our team was a shift limit. Most normal students are limited to (3) 2.5hr shifts per week during build.

[ttldomination]

This is the first I've heard of this, and I have to say, frankly, it's stupid.

My team logs in roughly 200 hours, with a few core logging in more hours in extra meetings and stuff outside of meetings.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

This is the first I've heard of this, and I have to say, frankly, it's stupid.

My team logs in roughly 200 hours, with a few core logging in more hours in extra meetings and stuff outside of meetings.

No, it is not stupid. It is an attempt to solve a real problem that students face. Instead of calling the administration stupid work with them to set realistic bounds.

[Tom Line]

I disagree there needs to be bounds set at all.

If the students other activites are not suffering, why would we limit their potential?

That's the policy we take. They know that school comes first. The more responsible students don't need to be told that. The other ones get a very stern counciling session should their grades slip at all.

How do kids develop personal responsibility if we shield them from making any bad decisions? Many people learn more from mistakes than they do from being told.

I see this as a step toward nannyism that the school shouldn't be taking. Where are their parents? The mentors? It's not a school's responsibility to manage these kids outside of school.

In fact, if no one on your team had their grades slip substantially, then I would argue that this is an answer that is in search of a problem.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

I disagree there needs to be bounds set at all.

If the students other activites are not suffering, why would we limit their potential?

That's the policy we take. They know that school comes first. The more responsible students don't need to be told that. The other ones get a very stern counciling session should their grades slip at all.

How do kids develop personal responsibility if we shield them from making any bad decisions? Many people learn more from mistakes than they do from being told.

I see this as a step toward nannyism that the school shouldn't be taking. Where are their parents? The mentors? It's not a school's responsibility to manage these kids outside of school.

In fact, if no one on your team had their grades slip substantially, then I would argue that this is an answer that is in search of a problem.

Agreed, our #1 student in terms of hours (and I mean just some KILLER hours), is also our student with the highest GPA. He got a B once, in AP Euro, but for a technical kid that aint bad.

[exprg:melonhead]

the most (recorded) hours put into the robot by any of our members was 104. i say recorded, because i know i put in a lot that i just didn't clock in for. but to get to the point, i think that you could easily fit within the new restraints. we did fairly well, and are always improving. we just work every year on working more efficiantly.

[Astrokid248]

Honestly, if your team members can't keep up their grades during season, they just shouldn't be on the team. Limiting the number of hours the team spends building the robot is not the solution to the problem. I know that my team generally spends about 400 hours working on the robot during the first six weeks and another 400 leading up to Championships. As one of those "integral team members" who have to stay longer, I know that it can get difficult. But it is humanly possible to get good grades, even straight A's in AP and college courses, while still putting in upwards of 800 hours of work over the semester. With regular grade checks over the build season and strict adherence to UIL rules (you fail a class, you're not on the team), your team should be able to excel in school and still build an amazing robot without limited work hours.

As a final note, you may want to let your administrators know that getting B's and C's while participating in FIRST robotics allows you to learn more and better prepares you for the future than getting straight A's and not participating in any sort of robotics (or other extracurricular activities).

[MadeAtMidnight]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

As a final note, you may want to let your administrators know that getting B's and C's while participating in FIRST robotics allows you to learn more and better prepares you for the future than getting straight A's and not participating in any sort of robotics (or other extracurricular activities).

Doesn't do much for college scholarships though. Several schools can give full rides to those with good ACT/SAT scores and 4.0 grade point. Doesn't happen if grades slip down. If cutting back a few hours makes a difference, saving several thousands of dollars should be a concern also. Just my .02.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by MadeAtMidnight

Doesn't do much for college scholarships though. Several schools can give full rides to those with good ACT/SAT scores and 4.0 grade point. Doesn't happen if grades slip down. If cutting back a few hours makes a difference, saving several thousands of dollars should be a concern also. Just my .02.

Yup, I missed a significantly higher scholarship bracket because my grades were too low. Grades matter. Grades matter a lot.

I will, however, agree that while it is possible to get good grades while putting in 200+ hours it is a stupid thing to do. If you are working 400hrs in 6 weeks you are doing something wrong. Perhaps you need to scale back on what you want to do or perhaps you need to delegate more. Either way, 400 hrs is ridiculous.

[Chris27]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Grades matter. Grades matter a lot.

Grades do matter but they are definitely not the most important thing. Frankly a ton of kids leave high school with a 4.0 GPA. Having high grades doesn't make a person special, however, the leadership skills and the experiences that can be gained through the FIRST program definitely can. While job hunting having FIRST on my resume gathered much more attention than my GPA. I found that a lot of the younger recruiters were FIRSTers themselves.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris27

Grades do matter but they are definitely not the most important thing. Frankly a ton of kids leave high school with a 4.0 GPA. Having high grades doesn't make a person special, however, the leadership skills and the experiences that can be gained through the FIRST program definitely can. While job hunting having FIRST on my resume gathered much more attention than my GPA. I found that a lot of the younger recruiters were FIRSTers themselves.

No, not the most important thing they are not something that can be ignored. For me it made the difference between not paying anything for college and 8-10 grand a year. Because I slacked off and thought grades weren't important. Yes extracurriculars are important but having a ton of them and poor grades just shows an utter lack of time management skills. Realize though, we are talking about two different things now. College scholarships and job applications are drastically different things.

[JaneYoung]

I would venture to guess that build season for FRC impacts the other classes that the students on teams attend. Attention-wise, grade-wise, study-wise, attendance-wise. What the cap would (hopefully) do would be to provide an opportunity for the students on the team to bring a little bit of balance into their tight schedules, allowing for some semblance of sanity and attention to courses and schedules outside the realm of build.

I'm not convinced that the majority of teenagers who have access to so many methods of social communication and networking at their fingertips, use wise judgment in time management regarding balancing their studies and build and the other aspects of their lives such as family life and extracurriculars. It's asking a lot for not only the students but also for the mentors - to use wise judgment in finding the balance and in role modeling that balance.

Jane

[Dale]

Having a cap known to all up front has an advantage in resource planning. The team won't be able to assume that a few ultra dedicated members are going to save the day by dedicating their lives and grades to the effort. If you know the cavalry isn't going to come, you teach everyone how to ride a horse and shoot a gun.

Just monitoring semester grades isn't enough. Since the build season is only six weeks, the effects of weeks of minimal sleep and sloppy homework might not be apparent until you're well into the build season. There's no mechanism at most schools to officially report grade drops over such a short period of time. It would have to be up to the teachers to feed back individual assignment results in some sort informal manner.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Dale

Having a cap known to all up front has an advantage in resource planning. The team won't be able to assume that a few ultra dedicated members are going to save the day by dedicating their lives and grades to the effort. If you know the cavalry isn't going to come, you teach everyone how to ride a horse and shoot a gun.

Just monitoring semester grades isn't enough. Since the build season is only six weeks, the effects of weeks of minimal sleep and sloppy homework might not be apparent until you're well into the build season. There's no mechanism at most schools to officially report grade drops over such a short period of time. It would have to be up to the teachers to feed back individual assignment results in some sort informal manner.

For our team we have a special Academics Mentor Coach... she is vital to the team as she keeps an eye on the current grade as well as any tendancies that a student is exhibiting... Is their work suffering?
Did an A student drop to an A- student or a B student...What assignments are coming?
This is a big job and before this year it was difficult to achieve...

In years past we always had a few students that would lose eligibility on the team...
This year we maintained eligibility for 100% of the team members.

This was due to this system and our team study sessions that occurred every day we had an evening meeting.

It takes diligence by both mentors/coaches and students to make sure that academics are taken care of.

I agree that having FIRST on a resume is important... however... if you don't maintain grades and keep your GPA up.... the admissions people won't even be looking at those resumes....

I think we all know that students ( or anyone for that matter) will always do things that are more interesting and stimulating to them... The trap some students fall into is that robotics is so much fun... and in many cases.... it seems more relevant....more real life....so they devote themselves to it. Unfortunately many high school classes don't seem to have the same relevance...depending on your teacher...

Nothing wrong with this... but they need to have balance...
Family, Academics and Robotics... all need that balance.

It takes a lot of work to do this... it simply can't be done by instituting a "rule" that you can't spend more than XXX hours....for some students.... 10 hours a week would be too much...
for others ... it could be more.... or less...

Everyone needs to be involved... coaches, mentors, parents AND students....
It takes a village to raise a robotics student...

Please excuse that reference to a cliched phrase... but it actually does fit...