Math...

[Mageofdancingdr]

Originally Posted by theprgramerdude

This is so, so true. At my school, there are numerous courses which students (including me) are required to take, yet they hate taking them, simply because they teach nothing of value. Or rather, we learn nothing of value. Teachers are trying to teach something we see no point in learning, like why, or rather, what types of dictatorships there are in the world. There's no point to all of this pseudo-learning going on. It does nothing to help us. When does the value of c cause the limit to exist for this equation.... all garbage.

Maybe I'm ranting too much due to the concussion and the pressure on my brain at the moment, but I've noticed there has definitely got to be something fundamentally wrong with the "teaching" in school today.

I'm firmly in view all classes have an application (though maybe I'm just lucky enough to not have had boring classes). If you can't see the application of the class to the real world, your teacher has failed you, and you have failed yourself. Maybe you could cite some examples of classes you're referring to?

I don't have any experience with non advanced math classes, but in my AP math classes (Calc BC last year, Statistics this year) the major missing part was proofs. Over and over again we were taught subject material that I subsequently went home to wolfram, wikipedia, or even a used textbook to find and understand proofs of why the math works out for things like L'hopital's rule, or how r^2 works in statistics. Math classes have lost their depth (if they ever had it) of helping students to think in terms of the mathematics, as opposed to "simple" application. It's the third step of the what?, how? why? triad of questions that's gone missing. and something I desperately hope returns before I grow up and have my own children enter the school system.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by Mageofdancingdr

find and understand proofs of why the math works out for things like L'hopital's rule

Calculus is a huge subject, and textbook authors have to choose what to include and omit.

If you want more rigorous coverage of "things like l'Hospital's Rule",
take a course in Real Analysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_analysis

[Molten]

Originally Posted by theprgramerdude

This is so, so true. At my school, there are numerous courses which students (including me) are required to take, yet they hate taking them, simply because they teach nothing of value. Or rather, we learn nothing of value. Teachers are trying to teach something we see no point in learning, like why, or rather, what types of dictatorships there are in the world. There's no point to all of this pseudo-learning going on. It does nothing to help us. When does the value of c cause the limit to exist for this equation.... all garbage.

Maybe I'm ranting too much due to the concussion and the pressure on my brain at the moment, but I've noticed there has definitely got to be something fundamentally wrong with the "teaching" in school today.

Just because you don't value it. Doesn't mean it has no value. I'm a tutor for pre-calculus. I know students think there isn't any use for algebra(unless your a farmer building a fence, creating a mixture, or any other stereotypical word problem) But the truth is, they can't comprehend the applications yet because you have to know algebra pretty good before you can actually follow their applications. Also, the reason there aren't many real world problems and proofs taught in school is because most students don't want them. They hate word problems and ignore the proof as long as they don't have to reproduce it. Perhaps the real problem is that the classes are catering to the students too much?

Jason

[Garret]

This is so, so true. At my school, there are numerous courses which students (including me) are required to take, yet they hate taking them, simply because they teach nothing of value. Or rather, we learn nothing of value. Teachers are trying to teach something we see no point in learning, like why, or rather, what types of dictatorships there are in the world. There's no point to all of this pseudo-learning going on. It does nothing to help us. When does the value of c cause the limit to exist for this equation.... all garbage.

I agree that there are some boring or irrelevant (at least to some people) courses in school. I have had some very negative experiences with teachers who seem to know nothing about the subject they are teaching. I have also had to endure some extremely boring classes that to me seemed to have nothing to with to do with my career path. However I also saw the immense value in these courses. So in this way I completely disagree that any courses have nothing of value. Every subject has something of value, however it is up to the student to determine how much they want to get out of the class. In other words, if you do not see the point of a class then it is because you do not want to see the point of the class; it is not because the class is not worth taking. I understand that there are some bad teachers out there, but just because a teacher is bad does not mean that the class/subject is worthless. In the post you seem to say that history/government classes and calculus are pointless; I could not disagree more. Classes such as history and government are incredibly important to everyone, not just history or political science majors. Without a solid understanding of history and the function of government then we will be unable to fully understand the present day. If you are in FIRST Robotics then I cannot fathom how you call calculus pointless. Without math you eliminate almost every technical career and even some non-technical careers. I used to have trouble understanding the point of English and writing, but I eventually learned that without a solid foundation in either someone cannot hope to succeed in college. Every class that the school forces you to take has a purpose; it is meant to make you into a more well-rounded person. If you see subjects that you don't like or find boring as being of such little value that you call it "all garbage" then you really do not understand the point of education. Education is meant to teach as many of the skills you will need to become a successful member of society not just those that are related only to a single subject. What would the world be like if each person only could do one thing: nothing would get done because no one would know how to interface with their team. If your teachers are failing to teach the subject adequately and you want to understand it better then you need to try to supplement it or ask the teacher for more clarification/background/help. I do believe that much of our education system is way too theoretical and does not have enough application taught in classes but if it is not given then you need to learn it on your own and not just complain about how it isn't taught.

My points are philosophical they are not meant to attack or chastise you in anyway. In many ways I agree with you but I really think that all education is important.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Garret

I agree that there are some boring or irrelevant (at least to some people) courses in school. I have had some very negative experiences with teachers who seem to know nothing about the subject they are teaching. I have also had to endure some extremely boring classes that to me seemed to have nothing to with to do with my career path. However I also saw the immense value in these courses. So in this way I completely disagree that any courses have nothing of value. Every subject has something of value, however it is up to the student to determine how much they want to get out of the class. In other words, if you do not see the point of a class then it is because you do not want to see the point of the class; it is not because the class is not worth taking. I understand that there are some bad teachers out there, but just because a teacher is bad does not mean that the class/subject is worthless. In the post you seem to say that history/government classes and calculus are pointless; I could not disagree more. Classes such as history and government are incredibly important to everyone, not just history or political science majors. Without a solid understanding of history and the function of government then we will be unable to fully understand the present day. If you are in FIRST Robotics then I cannot fathom how you call calculus pointless. Without math you eliminate almost every technical career and even some non-technical careers. I used to have trouble understanding the point of English and writing, but I eventually learned that without a solid foundation in either someone cannot hope to succeed in college. Every class that the school forces you to take has a purpose; it is meant to make you into a more well-rounded person. If you see subjects that you don't like or find boring as being of such little value that you call it "all garbage" then you really do not understand the point of education. Education is meant to teach as many of the skills you will need to become a successful member of society not just those that are related only to a single subject. What would the world be like if each person only could do one thing: nothing would get done because no one would know how to interface with their team. If your teachers are failing to teach the subject adequately and you want to understand it better then you need to try to supplement it or ask the teacher for more clarification/background/help. I do believe that much of our education system is way too theoretical and does not have enough application taught in classes but if it is not given then you need to learn it on your own and not just complain about how it isn't taught.

My points are philosophical they are not meant to attack or chastise you in anyway. In many ways I agree with you but I really think that all education is important.

What I believe theprgramerdude was trying to convey was that the class is useless. Understand, there is a firm distinction between a class and a subject. There are many useless classes but there are no useless subjects. There are also many ways of making a class useless. Some teachers make their classes useless; Sometimes it is the textbook. Sometimes it is even the student that makes the class not worthwhile. Often it is a combination of several factors that are all far too complex to classify or assign blame for.

So, instead of saying "it is the teacher's fault" or "the students don't want to learn" or blaming it on any single thing we should focus more on accepting that sometimes classes just are "meaningless" and then how we can minimize the number that is.

[theprgramerdude]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I realize I may be toeing a sensitive line with this reply, but I can't resist:



If it's any consolation, the engineers of the 1960's complained that THEIR children had it easy and were lazy, too (I know my grandfather did). It's pretty much a universal truth that Generation N thinks that Generation N+1 is going to be the downfall of the human race.

Are kids today REALLY any different than they've ever been?

"It's amazing how long this country has been going to hell without ever having gotten there." - Andy Rooney

It's true. We fail at failing. Does that make us better or worse than those who succeed at failing?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I didn't know that failing math or failing to doing homework for more than 15 minutes was gender-specific.

Jane

I think the use of he was in reference to the astronaut-as in "He (the astronaut) landed on the moon. Your eigth grader does 15 minutes of homework. Where do you think he'll end up?"

If it's trying to say he'll go to hell, well that's just idiotic.

[Chris is me]

To be fair to the poster, it loses its edge and becomes a lot more clumsy with "he or she", and "they're" isn't accepted by everyone as a proper term.

[JaneYoung]

I think there is/was a lot of potential in the message of the poster - it just is a little messy. Well, pretty messy. Or mixed. Mixed messy message.

That's nothing new either.

Jane

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I didn't know that failing math or failing to doing homework for more than 15 minutes was gender-specific.

Jane

The purpose of written communication is to gain an understanding between the writer and the reader.

Whether the writer is gender/politically correct or not, the information and meaning of the poster is well conveyed and its purpose served.

[rsisk]

So why is a slide rule needed to make a poster

[Akash Rastogi]

I like it.

Mostly because I'm terrible at understanding math, yet there's a bunch of technology around me, and a bunch of kids around me who don't even put in any effort to try to learn anything.

Yes I want to be a mechanical engineer and I have a hard time understanding math sometimes(when its not applied to real life examples, mind you).

Stuff like this goes from a student to student basis. I suck at math, just because I have a hard time understanding calculus, but that doesn't mean I (always) totally give up on it.

The technology doesn't have very much to do with it. The point of the poster is how much effort is put in by some kids. I do agree though, that this mindset is present in every generation.

Nice find, Pavan.

Know what's scary though? Stuff like this:

"Forty-four percent of American 4th grade students cannot read fluently, even when they read grade-level stories aloud under supportive testing conditions. " -National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) Pinnell et al., 1995

"50 percent of American adults are unable to read an eighth grade level book."-Jonathan Kozol, Illiterate America

[RyanN]

What is really a shocker is how many high schools, or even middle schools, allow students to use calculators, but then when the students go to college, calculators are banned in the math department.

At least that's how it is where I go to school. You try to get a student raised upon using a calculator to get a B or higher in college Calculus. It's not easy. I'm not going to lie. I struggled and worked really hard to earn my measly B's.

It's not really the importance that they need to know how to do it just to know how to do it. It's more of understanding why certain concepts work the way they do.

Nice post Pavan.

[Garret]

I see a lot of truth in this poster. At my high school, my old one, I see that most kids undervalue or do not at all see the value of math or science, or any subject for that matter. During class I see kids who are just sitting in the back and spend the entire class on their iPhone texting or checking facebook. I see kids, kids in AP and honors, texting in class, disrespecting teachers (this part makes me really mad), cheating (you wouldn't believe how absurd this got), and just constantly complaining about how teacher so and so gives us "so much homework" (taking notes on a chapter due next week) or "Why do we have to learn history". I get frustrated with kids today (even though I am still one) because I see an overall devaluement of education and that most kids (at my old school) only care about facebook or other stuff like that. I see the importance of social interaction and having fun but I really do not think it is necessary to be on your computer, iPhone, or whatever for most of the day.
Also I understand what it is like to not be good at school, I have ADD (pretty bad too) and struggle everyday to focus on school and especially struggle to get homework done. I am not one of those kids who is just naturally smart and does not know why other kids aren't necessarily smart.

This poster does in my opinion embody what many of the modern day American students have become. I left my old high school because I disapproved of the cheating and apathetical attitude towards school. As a student who has had to deal with this I think the poster's message is quite spot on.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

The purpose of written communication is to gain an understanding between the writer and the reader.

Whether the writer is gender/politically correct or not, the information and meaning of the poster is well conveyed and its purpose served.

It does in that it continues to underscore the male dominance and mentality in science, math, and technology. HE'LL helps move that attitude right along.

Good poster - good message - but could have been great by keeping to the comparison of the slide rule and the power of the cell phone. That's the true message: the use (and misuse) of power, knowledge, and meaningful application.

Jane